Have we ever been in a worse car buying era I don't know where to turn next.

henry24

born_again said:

jeffuk said:

mgfvvc said:

subjecttocontract said:
I didn't think we had electric commercial vehicles with sufficient range for everyone ?

Most commercial vehicles don't travel that far, so EVs may be suitable for the majority, if not everyone,

I think the poster is referring to HGVs no?

How does the range of an electric HGV compare to a diesel HGV?

The average range of the electric trucks we reviewed is 220 km, far lower than that of a diesel HGV. A typical diesel HGV can travel over 1,200 km on a full tank of diesel. This long-range, combined with a more established network of refuelling stations, is one why diesel vehicles have dominated the freight industry and it has been challenging for Electric trucks to HGVs.

The Electric HGV / Lorry Guide 2024 | Electric Car Guide

HGV range is limited by driving hours. Not the amount of fuel in the tank.

I used to be a HGV driver and one of the runs I had was 755km in one day with a electric stopping to charge 4 times in a day would be impossible 

subjecttocontract

Half the population live in flats and terraced houses. They have no means to home charge their EV. How do you resolve that major issue ?

WellKnownSid

subjecttocontract said:

Half the population live in flats and terraced houses. They have no means to home charge their EV. How do you resolve that major issue ?

I think the stats are less black and white.  Many do live in terraced houses and flats, but certainly most people in flats do not own cars.  The bigger blocker is the number of people who rent rather than the logistics of having off-street parking.  Why increase the value of someone else's house by paying for an EVSE?

Mildly_Miffed

subjecttocontract said:

Half the population live in flats and terraced houses. They have no means to home charge their EV. How do you resolve that major issue ?

Much lower than that.

Just 32% of households nationally have no scope for off-road parking.

Now factor in that many of those will be in dense urban areas with good public transport, too. 70% in London, but 33% of households have no car.

But there are plans and investigations for solutions. It's far from insoluble.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cross-pavement-solutions-for-charging-electric-vehicles/cross-pavement-solutions-for-charging-electric-vehicles

https://ferribysustainability.co.uk/2024/11/18/ev-adoption-in-the-uk-overcoming-off-street-parking-challenges/

molerat

henry24 said:

born_again said:

jeffuk said:

mgfvvc said:

subjecttocontract said:
I didn't think we had electric commercial vehicles with sufficient range for everyone ?

Most commercial vehicles don't travel that far, so EVs may be suitable for the majority, if not everyone,

I think the poster is referring to HGVs no?

How does the range of an electric HGV compare to a diesel HGV?

The average range of the electric trucks we reviewed is 220 km, far lower than that of a diesel HGV. A typical diesel HGV can travel over 1,200 km on a full tank of diesel. This long-range, combined with a more established network of refuelling stations, is one why diesel vehicles have dominated the freight industry and it has been challenging for Electric trucks to HGVs.

The Electric HGV / Lorry Guide 2024 | Electric Car Guide

HGV range is limited by driving hours. Not the amount of fuel in the tank.

I used to be a HGV driver and one of the runs I had was 755km in one day with a electric stopping to charge 4 times in a day would be impossible 

Agreed, if it were only that simple.  I have posted elsewhere about a company that has a fleet of 40ft trucks which are only suitable for local running.  They can only economically be charged over night at home base.  They reckon for long distance they would need likely 30-50% more vehicles and drivers to do the same amount of work as now with more drivers out overnight.  Companies give 30 minute slots for their freight to be delivered so good luck in fitting another fly in that ointment.  The ongoing cost to the economy is going to be massive.

Baldytyke88

WellKnownSid said:

I think the stats are less black and white.  Many do live in terraced houses and flats, but certainly most people in flats do not own cars.  The bigger blocker is the number of people who rent rather than the logistics of having off-street parking.  Why increase the value of someone else's house by paying for an EVSE?

The Government needs to make overhead charging wires from terraced houses accepted practice. Even a charging point near flats could be used if a person logged into their providers account. Paying a middleman does not make sense.

letom

born_again said:

History is littered with changes of modes of transport.
Never has so much polarized opinion by groups that have never tried other means got to the point that total FUD is posted..

The reason it is polarising is because the public are being forced to move from a mode of transport today that works for 100% of needs to another that does not. You would get the same polarisation if the government forced people to go back to dumb phones. You can't keep trying to convince people that they are actually stupid and an EV is actually better than what they use today, when what they have today fulfils all their needs.

For a new product to be adopted by customers it needs to be solving something the old product lacked, something important enough that the consumer cares enough about. What unmet consumer need is an EV solving?

oldernonethewiser

letom said:

born_again said:

History is littered with changes of modes of transport.
Never has so much polarized opinion by groups that have never tried other means got to the point that total FUD is posted..

The reason it is polarising is because the public are being forced to move from a mode of transport today that works for 100% of needs to another that does not. You would get the same polarisation if the government forced people to go back to dumb phones. You can't keep trying to convince people that they are actually stupid and an EV is actually better than what they use today, when what they have today fulfils all their needs.

For a new product to be adopted by customers it needs to be solving something the old product lacked, something important enough that the consumer cares enough about. What unmet consumer need is an EV solving?

At what cost?  (I don't mean financial)

subjecttocontract

Mildly_Miffed said:

subjecttocontract said:

Half the population live in flats and terraced houses. They have no means to home charge their EV. How do you resolve that major issue ?

Much lower than that.

Just 32% of households nationally have no scope for off-road parking.

Now factor in that many of those will be in dense urban areas with good public transport, too. 70% in London, but 33% of households have no car.

But there are plans and investigations for solutions. It's far from insoluble.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cross-pavement-solutions-for-charging-electric-vehicles/cross-pavement-solutions-for-charging-electric-vehicles

https://ferribysustainability.co.uk/2024/11/18/ev-adoption-in-the-uk-overcoming-off-street-parking-challenges/

I had a large property portfolio of flats in Essex. They were spread around a dozen different sites. In my experience very few residents on those sites didn't own a car. Installing EV charge points would not be cost effective for anyone involved. We can't ignore those that won't be able to home charge. In towns like Basildon where there are around 100,000 flats and terraced houses......and almost every property has at least one car it will require some serious investment to provide EV charging. I'd suggest it aint gonna happen anytime soon.

Mildly_Miffed

letom said:

The reason it is polarising is because the public are being forced to move from a mode of transport today that works for 100% of needs to another that does not.

It works because it's what we're used to.

It works because the infrastructure exists.
Imagine trying to set up the infrastructure for ICE refuelling today, from scratch.
8,500 sites nationally with multiple huge tanks containing seriously environmentally dodgy explosive pollutants. It was a third more than that 25 years ago - the rest went out of business, mostly in the 00s. It was a peak of nearly 40,000 in the 1960s... and think about the legacy of ground pollution that's left. 
Pipelines across the country from a handful of refineries to a few regional distribution centres, then trucks driving backwards and forwards.

We have an electricity grid.
The operators of that say it's ready.
So why don't we have the charging infrastructure yet? Simple, and the usual story with this country...
...because of commercial and governmental short-termism and lack of investment.

You would get the same polarisation if the government forced people to go back to dumb phones.

And yet they worked for decades. Because they were what we were used to.

Now imagine going back to 1970s/80s levels of air pollution.
Now think forward to when the air in cities is cleaner still, and you wouldn't want to go back to today.

It's simple resistance to change.

Two-thirds of the country have the potential for installing charging infrastructure at home. The recoup period for the investment in installing a charger is months, not years.

There's all this doom and gloom about how we can't drive to the other end of the country and back for lunch... We SIMPLY DON'T DO THAT.
The average annual mileage for cars in this country has fallen over the last couple of decades - in 2002 it was 9,200 miles, in 2023 it was 7,000 miles - 135 miles per week.
The average BEV in the UK would need charging roughly once a fortnight, that's all.

Sure, there's outliers - and, yes, freight is one of them.
But why can't we put much of that freight onto rail instead of road? Then use road for local distribution...
Hydrogen fuel cells may also be the solution here. They're simply (much) less efficient EVs, no more than that. But the trade-off for that efficiency is convenience and fast refuelling.
But drivers still need to take breaks. Tie those breaks in with fast charging. 45min after 4.5hrs.
Again, perhaps a bit more investment in infrastructure...
4.5hrs x 90kph = 405km max between breaks.
There's BEV HGVs on the market with that range now, 500km from 525kWh battery in DAF XF.
You'd need at least a 700kW charger to fully recharge that in 45min, before charging losses.
500kW charging has been around for a couple of years. Two of those connected in parallel, sorted. 700kW and even 1MW charging has been demonstrated.

What unmet consumer need is an EV solving?

Clean air.