Have we ever been in a worse car buying era I don't know where to turn next.

RogerPensionGuy

motorguy said:

henry24 said:

They need to be better so people will buy them like they do ICE cars without up to 40% discount and government help, it needs to be a level playing field 

No they dont.

The issue is on paper they are more expensive to buy new.  Combined with the other reasons, people are unsure.

I say "on paper", as once you get in to the PCP or leasing deals - on which nearly all new cars are bought - they're no more expensive for the monthlies as their ICE equivalents.

This is yet another issue that is problematic for EV introducing.

Lease companies typically purchased brand new ICE cars at say 20%(guide, big variations on these buy figures) then at say 2,3 or 4 years sold them on at a sensible price, this is becoming a real problem as EVs become more commonplace.

The depression in EV prices it hurting that wonderful leasing gravey train. 

So as we can see the public are now getting 20, 25% discount of new or pre-reg EVs and this is shifting the markets.

Leasing companies are now doing much more 2nd EV leasing to help out, but doing this reduces the need for shinny new EVs. 

The next few quarters will see further clearance of field or ports full of EVs, makers need them gone however they do.

Think I read uber drivers and similar are able to buy brand new EVs at about 35% below RRP as EV makers need to dump them, London is a great example, uber EVs of RRP in the 50 to 70K RRP price range, clear evidence these EVs are being cleared at super discounted rates. 

RogerPensionGuy

WellKnownSid said:

henry24 said:

motorguy said:

henry24 said:

They need to be better so people will buy them like they do ICE cars without up to 40% discount and government help, it needs to be a level playing field 

No they dont.

The issue is on paper they are more expensive to buy new.  Combined with the other reasons, people are unsure.

I say "on paper", as once you get in to the PCP or leasing deals - on which nearly all new cars are bought - they're no more expensive for the monthlies as their ICE equivalents.

I've just been looking at leasing deals for a mini cooper I picked this one as it was the easiest for me to compare.  The basic petrol lease over four years and 15000 miles per year costs £15048 but the EV one is £23800 or £8751 more. When you have something losing money like a EV the leasing companies have to charge more

I would definitely try both cars first - the 230kW Countryman is brutal off the line.  My company has bought in a salary sacrifice company car scheme which means a 45% saving off the bat so it's at the top of my list

Good points. 

Salary sacrifice is really really helping prop up the EV show and the tax payers are paying the bill. 

Baldytyke88

WellKnownSid said:

henry24 said:

This is one of many not far from my village could you explain how you would park these off road

I see street lights… 

On some streets you cannot even park outside your own house, never mind charge your EV

letom

Mildly_Miffed said:

letom said:

The reason it is polarising is because the public are being forced to move from a mode of transport today that works for 100% of needs to another that does not.

It works because it's what we're used to.

It works because the infrastructure exists.
Imagine trying to set up the infrastructure for ICE refuelling today, from scratch.
8,500 sites nationally with multiple huge tanks containing seriously environmentally dodgy explosive pollutants. It was a third more than that 25 years ago - the rest went out of business, mostly in the 00s. It was a peak of nearly 40,000 in the 1960s... and think about the legacy of ground pollution that's left. 
Pipelines across the country from a handful of refineries to a few regional distribution centres, then trucks driving backwards and forwards.

We have an electricity grid.
The operators of that say it's ready.
So why don't we have the charging infrastructure yet? Simple, and the usual story with this country...
...because of commercial and governmental short-termism and lack of investment.

You would get the same polarisation if the government forced people to go back to dumb phones.

And yet they worked for decades. Because they were what we were used to.

Now imagine going back to 1970s/80s levels of air pollution.
Now think forward to when the air in cities is cleaner still, and you wouldn't want to go back to today.

It's simple resistance to change.

Two-thirds of the country have the potential for installing charging infrastructure at home. The recoup period for the investment in installing a charger is months, not years.

There's all this doom and gloom about how we can't drive to the other end of the country and back for lunch... We SIMPLY DON'T DO THAT.
The average annual mileage for cars in this country has fallen over the last couple of decades - in 2002 it was 9,200 miles, in 2023 it was 7,000 miles - 135 miles per week.
The average BEV in the UK would need charging roughly once a fortnight, that's all.

Sure, there's outliers - and, yes, freight is one of them.
But why can't we put much of that freight onto rail instead of road? Then use road for local distribution...
Hydrogen fuel cells may also be the solution here. They're simply (much) less efficient EVs, no more than that. But the trade-off for that efficiency is convenience and fast refuelling.
But drivers still need to take breaks. Tie those breaks in with fast charging. 45min after 4.5hrs.
Again, perhaps a bit more investment in infrastructure...
4.5hrs x 90kph = 405km max between breaks.
There's BEV HGVs on the market with that range now, 500km from 525kWh battery in DAF XF.
You'd need at least a 700kW charger to fully recharge that in 45min, before charging losses.
500kW charging has been around for a couple of years. Two of those connected in parallel, sorted. 700kW and even 1MW charging has been demonstrated.

What unmet consumer need is an EV solving?

Clean air.

Your last line sums it all up. "Clean air" is not a consumer unmet need, no one is buying their car based on "clean air", maybe you did, but the market is not. This is why EV adoption will always be an uphill battle, it's a product that is not addressing any consumer unmet need. The market and consumers will not adopt EVs without being forced, because it is an inferior product relative to the fundamentally most important purchasing criteria of a car user "can this get be from A or B without any fuss".

Why would I buy a product that does 95% of what I need when the product today does 100%...

motorguy

Emmia said:

motorguy said:

Baldytyke88 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Baldytyke88 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Many EVs will easily do in excess of 200 miles on a single charge. Anything from Tesla, the 64kWh Leaf models, more than half of the Kia and Hyundai models etc.

If you look at manufactuer MPG figures compared to real-life figures, a substantial reduction is normal.

They might, but I know people who have 64kWh Leafs and have no issue going over 200 miles on a charge, and Tesla drivers regularly push over that.

The latest technology and its range is 140 miles, according to manufacturer figures; it is cheap though.

When going to the coast, people don't always choose the closest.

If I had this Dacia I would want a resort with plenty of charging points.

I do support the introduction of EVs, but I don't see them as an answer to climate change. Governments like to tax people with cars because they are a easily identifiable asset, they need to be taxed more. There is a long way to go, before people favour them.

https://www.arnoldclark.com/used-cars/ref/cc_nuadhdcqlku1fflq?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA9667BhDoARIsANnamQYc9KbS09wkYAtTEh7Qn_LvJsQ1E73wA3uc6W_t2ZCNeS0Wmm93FEEaAmsAEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Whos pitching them as an answer to climate change?  Clearly they're not.

They do, however remove pollutants puffing in to everyones faces in towns and city centres.

Also, we really need to stop relying on burning the earths resources to move us all about.

That's not quite true, EVs being heavier than ICE equivalents cause more tyre wear, and a particularly bad form of particulate pollution. They're not pollution free.

But really there need to be fewer cars on the roads overall, that means people giving up ICEs or EVs and not buying another.  This is something of a NIMBY problem, as people almost always will want someone else to give up their car...

Well what i said is perfectly true.  They dont have the pollutants that ICE cars otherwise puff in to our faces.  I didnt say they were pollution free.

Agreed RE: we need less cars on our road.   Its definitely going to have to be a mass cultural change.  We brits do like our personal transport.

user1977

henry24 said:

My photo was for user1977 as he thinks all terraced houses can have off street parking 

No, read what I said more carefully. I don’t think anybody here has said that all terraced houses can have off street parking. Some do.

RogerPensionGuy

On a side note for anyone wanting to buy an EV. 

I just spend 20 minutes on Autotrader. 

I filled the filter with EV only, year 2024 to new, milage to a maximum of 500 miles and various minimum & maximum prices as required.

Plenty of brand new cars where buyer will be the 1st keeper at often 10 to 20% off the RRP, amazing how they can sell these cars way below RRP.

If being 2nd keeper and 10 miles on the clock doesn't bother you, plenty at 20, 25, 30 & 33% off RRP I noticed.

Altho I'm reluctant to have an EV due public charging logistics and fuel cost becoming double my current ICE car, at 33% off a lease made up RRP number, even I may buy one, I'll keep trawling and if a nice spec EV becomes available at 40% off RRP, then yeah I'll buy one and just manage it.

From the environment stand point a poor outcome as I'll only buy a real world 350+ miles range EV whick is far too heavy and its efficiency obviously poor due weight, so a loose loose outcome, but a new hi spec EV is a nice vehicle in my opinion. 

Mildly_Miffed

letom said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

What unmet consumer need is an EV solving?

Clean air.

Your last line sums it all up. "Clean air" is not a consumer unmet need, no one is buying their car based on "clean air", maybe you did, but the market is not. This is why EV adoption will always be an uphill battle, it's a product that is not addressing any consumer unmet need.

Which is precisely why the market needs a legislative nudge, in the greater good.

It's why there's pedestrian impact regulations on new cars, even though the people they benefit aren't the car buyers.

motorguy

henry24 said:

motorguy said:

henry24 said:

They need to be better so people will buy them like they do ICE cars without up to 40% discount and government help, it needs to be a level playing field 

No they dont.

The issue is on paper they are more expensive to buy new.  Combined with the other reasons, people are unsure.

I say "on paper", as once you get in to the PCP or leasing deals - on which nearly all new cars are bought - they're no more expensive for the monthlies as their ICE equivalents.

I've just been looking at leasing deals for a mini cooper I picked this one as it was the easiest for me to compare.  The basic petrol lease over four years and 15000 miles per year costs £15048 but the EV one is £23800 or £8751 more. When you have something losing money like a EV the leasing companies have to charge more

quite literally the first website i checked - new Mini EV, 4 years, 15 miles, £17K

https://leasing.com/independent-brokers/select-car-leasing/mini/cooper/L0105240000013143528

I'm sure with a bit of effort i could match your £15K.

motorguy

Mildly_Miffed said:

motorguy said:

Choice here in N. Ireland is extremely limited also.

No more limited than anywhere else in the country.

The range of new cars available is identical.

Travel to view/collect a used car might not be quite so straightforward, but it's still eminently possible.

There's no hassle with import or registration. In fact, if you wanted to import from anywhere else in Europe, it's easier.

Limited in the sense that there are cars i cant even test drive here in NI, because there are none available.

Yeah if i'd be happy to organise a flight and either drive it back or fly back and have it trailered here then yes, very doable.

We did that with my FILs Renault a few years back.  

It may come to that again.