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Rejecting new car due to dealer misfuel

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  • 99iainb
    99iainb Posts: 95 Forumite
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    edited 18 January at 3:47PM
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    Don't know if I mentioned before but the fuel station was 1.6 miles away from the retail dealer, all downhill

    The fuel station was morrisons and they've been very communicative and said they want to know as much information as possible, have provided me with a receipt and are sorting out CCTV footage for me.
  • Mildly_Miffed
    Mildly_Miffed Posts: 503 Forumite
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    99iainb said:
    The other injectors are currently functioning as required"
    Goudy said:

    I would bet the others are in or near a similar state, particularly number three, as the inner cylinders tend to run a bit hotter and they tend to get up to peak compression a little faster.
    So a fault with one injector and the others running normally would rule out a tank of diesel?
    Yes.

    There is a "rail" (a pipe) running across the top of all three injectors, containing fuel pressurised by the high pressure fuel pump. Each of the injectors is plugged into it, so the fuel in the rail is shared between all the cylinders.

    When the ECU sends an electrical signal, an injector opens for a precisely calibrated period of time, and fuel is injected. The ECU knows the pressure in the rail, and the flow rates of the injectors, so the duration of the injector opening is directly related to the amount of fuel needed.

    In older engines, the fuel was injected outside the inlet valves, then drawn in when the valve opened. But in a direct injection engine like yours, the petrol goes straight into the combustion chamber, where it's ignited by the spark, so the timing of the injection is critical, as well as the duration. The fuel is pressurised to about 100 bar, 100x atmospheric pressure, or 50x the air pressure in your tyres... And remember, if a three cylinder engine is doing 45mpg at 60mph and 2,000rpm, then there's 50 injector firings per second, each one only 1/33rd of one ml of fuel... This is VERY high-tech and high-precision stuff in a modern engine.

    The tip of the injector is exposed to the full violence and heat and pressure of the explosion within the cylinder. When they say that the injector was "blowing by", they mean that that explosion was not sealed in - it was leaking past the injector's seal. Fuel contamination can't cause that. The black sooty deposits on one part of the injector's body show where the combustion was escaping.
  • Ganga
    Ganga Posts: 4,193 Forumite
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    99iainb said:
    The other injectors are currently functioning as required"
    Goudy said:

    I would bet the others are in or near a similar state, particularly number three, as the inner cylinders tend to run a bit hotter and they tend to get up to peak compression a little faster.
    So a fault with one injector and the others running normally would rule out a tank of diesel?
    Yes.

    There is a "rail" (a pipe) running across the top of all three injectors, containing fuel pressurised by the high pressure fuel pump. Each of the injectors is plugged into it, so the fuel in the rail is shared between all the cylinders.

    When the ECU sends an electrical signal, an injector opens for a precisely calibrated period of time, and fuel is injected. The ECU knows the pressure in the rail, and the flow rates of the injectors, so the duration of the injector opening is directly related to the amount of fuel needed.

    In older engines, the fuel was injected outside the inlet valves, then drawn in when the valve opened. But in a direct injection engine like yours, the petrol goes straight into the combustion chamber, where it's ignited by the spark, so the timing of the injection is critical, as well as the duration. The fuel is pressurised to about 100 bar, 100x atmospheric pressure, or 50x the air pressure in your tyres... And remember, if a three cylinder engine is doing 45mpg at 60mph and 2,000rpm, then there's 50 injector firings per second, each one only 1/33rd of one ml of fuel... This is VERY high-tech and high-precision stuff in a modern engine.

    The tip of the injector is exposed to the full violence and heat and pressure of the explosion within the cylinder. When they say that the injector was "blowing by", they mean that that explosion was not sealed in - it was leaking past the injector's seal. Fuel contamination can't cause that. The black sooty deposits on one part of the injector's body show where the combustion was escaping.
    Having read the whole thread i think the above is more likely ,forget the fuel issue ,it has not had diesel added or started with neat diesel ,the faulty injector appears to have not been torqued down and compression is blowing past it ,i bet if the repairing garage fitted a new injector with new seals the car would run perfectly.
    As for all engines leaving the factory in perfect condition ,when i worked for the local Ford tractor dealer we had a brand new Ford Excavator that was leaking water/anti-freeze found on PDI ,it was a faulty head gasket ,tried to fit a new gasket and could not get the bolts to fit in the block ,the head which had been machined drilled was faulty and needed a new one ,faults happen.
    ITS NOT EASY TO GET EVERYTHING WRONG ,I HAVE TO WORK HARD TO DO IT!
  • sevenhills
    sevenhills Posts: 5,938 Forumite
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    99iainb said:

    I Bought a new car in England on the 29/12, collected it with 64 miles fuel range in it. Drove to the nearest petrol station and filled up with petrol. Drove home 110 miles, left it a few days before travelling on holiday did another 150 miles, with no performance issues and very good mpg numbers... when the engine failed

    99iainb said:
    Don't know if I mentioned before but the fuel station was 1.6 miles away from the retail dealer, all downhill

    The fuel station was morrisons and they've been very communicative and said they want to know as much information as possible, have provided me with a receipt and are sorting out CCTV footage for me.

    Is that a wind-up, a road 1.6 miles all downhill?

  • 99iainb
    99iainb Posts: 95 Forumite
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    edited 19 January at 12:02AM
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    99iainb said:

    I Bought a new car in England on the 29/12, collected it with 64 miles fuel range in it. Drove to the nearest petrol station and filled up with petrol. Drove home 110 miles, left it a few days before travelling on holiday did another 150 miles, with no performance issues and very good mpg numbers... when the engine failed

    99iainb said:
    Don't know if I mentioned before but the fuel station was 1.6 miles away from the retail dealer, all downhill

    The fuel station was morrisons and they've been very communicative and said they want to know as much information as possible, have provided me with a receipt and are sorting out CCTV footage for me.

    Is that a wind-up, a road 1.6 miles all downhill?

    Lol, no, seriously, the dealership was at the top of a big hill... it's hilly up north, more than seven hills  :D

    Just mentioned it because these new fangled engines supposed to coast down hills, it certainly did when I was on the motorway coming home
  • Goudy
    Goudy Posts: 1,601 Forumite
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    edited 19 January at 8:34AM
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    Ganga said:
    99iainb said:
    The other injectors are currently functioning as required"
    Goudy said:

    I would bet the others are in or near a similar state, particularly number three, as the inner cylinders tend to run a bit hotter and they tend to get up to peak compression a little faster.
    So a fault with one injector and the others running normally would rule out a tank of diesel?
    Yes.

    There is a "rail" (a pipe) running across the top of all three injectors, containing fuel pressurised by the high pressure fuel pump. Each of the injectors is plugged into it, so the fuel in the rail is shared between all the cylinders.

    When the ECU sends an electrical signal, an injector opens for a precisely calibrated period of time, and fuel is injected. The ECU knows the pressure in the rail, and the flow rates of the injectors, so the duration of the injector opening is directly related to the amount of fuel needed.

    In older engines, the fuel was injected outside the inlet valves, then drawn in when the valve opened. But in a direct injection engine like yours, the petrol goes straight into the combustion chamber, where it's ignited by the spark, so the timing of the injection is critical, as well as the duration. The fuel is pressurised to about 100 bar, 100x atmospheric pressure, or 50x the air pressure in your tyres... And remember, if a three cylinder engine is doing 45mpg at 60mph and 2,000rpm, then there's 50 injector firings per second, each one only 1/33rd of one ml of fuel... This is VERY high-tech and high-precision stuff in a modern engine.

    The tip of the injector is exposed to the full violence and heat and pressure of the explosion within the cylinder. When they say that the injector was "blowing by", they mean that that explosion was not sealed in - it was leaking past the injector's seal. Fuel contamination can't cause that. The black sooty deposits on one part of the injector's body show where the combustion was escaping.
    Having read the whole thread i think the above is more likely ,forget the fuel issue ,it has not had diesel added or started with neat diesel 
    I am not certain you can say that for sure.
    I can't be sure it has had but things don't look right and the dealer has had better access to the injector and fuel than we have.

    What happens if you keep adding an incompressible liquid into a cylinder that just won't burn with a spark?
    Pressure increases and it's going to look for a way out, the easiest way out!

    Over 260 miles or so, if more and more quantities of incompressible liquid have been added that won't fully burn, it's going to build up until finally something has to give.

    Lets say that is correct, what is the likely weakest pint?
    The spark plugs are screwed in pretty well.
    The head is bolted down with lots of bolts/studs with high torque and the gasket and mating surfaces are new.
    The engine is new so the rings and bores will be pretty well matched.

    Chances are it's the push fit injectors held in with rubber seals to the fuel rail.
    The rubber seals will obviously allow some movement as they are not solid, just not the sort of movement that comes from the cylinder trying to compress all that incompressible liquid.

    Over time this movement has worn away the seal which is why it looks scrubbed rather than split, allowing more and more movement of the injector until the seal to the head breaks and it can let the pressure out.

    Didn't the OP say they are paying to have the fuel tested?
    Lets see.
  • 99iainb
    99iainb Posts: 95 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
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    Goudy said:
    Ganga said:
    99iainb said:
    The other injectors are currently functioning as required"
    Goudy said:

    I would bet the others are in or near a similar state, particularly number three, as the inner cylinders tend to run a bit hotter and they tend to get up to peak compression a little faster.
    So a fault with one injector and the others running normally would rule out a tank of diesel?
    Yes.

    There is a "rail" (a pipe) running across the top of all three injectors, containing fuel pressurised by the high pressure fuel pump. Each of the injectors is plugged into it, so the fuel in the rail is shared between all the cylinders.

    When the ECU sends an electrical signal, an injector opens for a precisely calibrated period of time, and fuel is injected. The ECU knows the pressure in the rail, and the flow rates of the injectors, so the duration of the injector opening is directly related to the amount of fuel needed.

    In older engines, the fuel was injected outside the inlet valves, then drawn in when the valve opened. But in a direct injection engine like yours, the petrol goes straight into the combustion chamber, where it's ignited by the spark, so the timing of the injection is critical, as well as the duration. The fuel is pressurised to about 100 bar, 100x atmospheric pressure, or 50x the air pressure in your tyres... And remember, if a three cylinder engine is doing 45mpg at 60mph and 2,000rpm, then there's 50 injector firings per second, each one only 1/33rd of one ml of fuel... This is VERY high-tech and high-precision stuff in a modern engine.

    The tip of the injector is exposed to the full violence and heat and pressure of the explosion within the cylinder. When they say that the injector was "blowing by", they mean that that explosion was not sealed in - it was leaking past the injector's seal. Fuel contamination can't cause that. The black sooty deposits on one part of the injector's body show where the combustion was escaping.
    Having read the whole thread i think the above is more likely ,forget the fuel issue ,it has not had diesel added or started with neat diesel 
    I am not certain you can say that for sure.
    I can't be sure it has had but things don't look right and the dealer has had better access to the injector and fuel than we have.

    What happens if you keep adding an incompressible liquid into a cylinder that just won't burn with a spark?
    Pressure increases and it's going to look for a way out, the easiest way out!

    Over 260 miles or so, if more and more quantities of incompressible liquid have been added that won't fully burn, it's going to build up until finally something has to give.

    Lets say that is correct, what is the likely weakest pint?
    The spark plugs are screwed in pretty well.
    The head is bolted down with lots of bolts/studs with high torque and the gasket and mating surfaces are new.
    The engine is new so the rings and bores will be pretty well matched.

    Chances are it's the push fit injectors held in with rubber seals to the fuel rail.
    The rubber seals will obviously allow some movement as they are not solid, just not the sort of movement that comes from the cylinder trying to compress all that incompressible liquid.

    Over time this movement has worn away the seal which is why it looks scrubbed rather than split, allowing more and more movement of the injector until the seal to the head breaks and it can let the pressure out.

    Didn't the OP say they are paying to have the fuel tested?
    Lets see.
    Yes, was sent to the lab on Wednesday, results in 7 to 10 working days
  • Nobbie1967
    Nobbie1967 Posts: 1,506 Forumite
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    Goudy said:

    What happens if you keep adding an incompressible liquid into a cylinder that just won't burn with a spark?
    Pressure increases and it's going to look for a way out, the easiest way out!

    I like your theory, but just a couple of problems with it. Why is only one cylinder affected? If unburnt fuel is the problem, surely it would accumulate in all cylinders and cause similar blow by in all of them and damage the other injectors? Also, a mix of petrol diesel would still burn, or at least vaporise, just very smokily unless there was a high proportion of diesel in it. I remember pouring a load of engine oil into my inlet manifold by mistake when filling the dash pot on my old petrol montego. It ran fine, but produced a massive smoke plume behind me.
  • sevenhills
    sevenhills Posts: 5,938 Forumite
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    Goudy said:

    Over 260 miles or so, if more and more quantities of incompressible liquid have been added that won't fully burn, it's going to build up until finally something has to give.

    Lets say that is correct, what is the likely weakest pint?


    99iainb said:

    I Bought a new car in England on the 29/12, collected it with 64 miles fuel range in it. Drove to the nearest petrol station and filled up with petrol. Drove home 110 miles, left it a few days before travelling on holiday did another 150 miles, with no performance issues and very good mpg numbers... when the engine failed, got towed back to my local dealer

    The OP drove with no performance issues, even though they are not mechanically minded, that wouldn't be the case.
    The OP does not give many details, but if the OP is being honest driving 260 miles with mixed fuel would show symptoms.

  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 15,426 Forumite
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    99iainb said:
    99iainb said:

    I Bought a new car in England on the 29/12, collected it with 64 miles fuel range in it. Drove to the nearest petrol station and filled up with petrol. Drove home 110 miles, left it a few days before travelling on holiday did another 150 miles, with no performance issues and very good mpg numbers... when the engine failed

    99iainb said:
    Don't know if I mentioned before but the fuel station was 1.6 miles away from the retail dealer, all downhill

    The fuel station was morrisons and they've been very communicative and said they want to know as much information as possible, have provided me with a receipt and are sorting out CCTV footage for me.

    Is that a wind-up, a road 1.6 miles all downhill?

    Lol, no, seriously, the dealership was at the top of a big hill... it's hilly up north, more than seven hills  :D

    Just mentioned it because these new fangled engines supposed to coast down hills, it certainly did when I was on the motorway coming home
    Even coasting with a ICE is using fuel.
    Unless it was a very steep hill, it would take a while to get up to speed. 
    So I would ignore this point & go back to the point that injector 2 had not been fitted correctly.
    Life in the slow lane
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