Pub barring

Pollycat

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Pollycat said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

GingerTim said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Hi

Just a quick query about the legal, and practical, position I'm in after a visit to my High Street pub.

So I went to this pub a couple of nights ago, reasonably merry when I went. I went to the bar and ordered a cider. There were 3 women next to me and I had a quick chat about their drink.

I went and sat down and finished the drink and returned to the bar to order another.

Utterly unexpectedly the manager said I 'said something sexual' without elaborating and barred me for 6 months.  She didn’t think  even tell me what I was alleged to have said and to whom.

I didn’t say anything of the kind. I know all pubs are private premises but it seems to me that she took someone else's word and determined a course of action without even asking me anything.

I feel it was a little misandric. How can it be acceptable to bar someone without any elaboration?

Just interested out of curiosity that I may be being discriminated against.

Thanks

If you were already 'reasonably merry' when you arrived at the pub surely it's entirely conceivable you may have said something untoward?

I would not expect the manager to identify the complainant, particularly if it was a woman, for quite obvious reasons.

Misandric? Give over.

I know who the complainant was as I only talked to one group of girls at the bar about the colour of their drinks.

I'm  always polite and some weird sexual comment isn't me. 

In hindsight I should have found them and checked the veracity of what they said.

Is it possible I said something I don't  recall, probably  less than 1% chance as I was lucid. I was cycling!

Misandry, see the above thought experiment. I've had it done before, so you're wrong.

Thanks for the input.

Cycling!
Whilst being merry?
Really?
The height of stupidity.
Think total lucky that the worst thing that happened to you was you got battered from a pub for 6 months.

As for the 'in hindsight I should have found them...', I think you're very lucky that your hindsight didn't kick in.

3 pints for a 6ft 4 inch fit guy is utterly irrelevant to cycling safety, with all due respect. I've thought about it now and I don't think my comment was anything to do with the girls at the bar.

I think she mis-heard me at my table. It was extremely  loud in there. Just annoying I had no explanation.

With 'due respect', it was you who admitted you were reasonably merry even before you had a further drink.
Even a "6ft 4 inch fit guy" may well have failed a breath test if he had been driving a car. 

GingerTim

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

annabanana82 said:

I have a female relative that was barred from a wetherspoons for saying something inappropriate to a male customer so I don't think there is a case for discrimination.

What did she say out of interest?

Incidentally, I was sexually assaulted in there early last year by a man. I didn't even report it as he was no threat. Perhaps I should have.

You absolutely should - he may pose a threat to someone else.

Aylesbury_Duck

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

annabanana82 said:

I have a female relative that was barred from a wetherspoons for saying something inappropriate to a male customer so I don't think there is a case for discrimination.

What did she say out of interest?

Incidentally, I was sexually assaulted in there early last year by a man. I didn't even report it as he was no threat. Perhaps I should have.

Perhaps?  Of course you should have, and still should do so!  The perpetrator is likely to keep offending unless reported and caught.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

eskbanker said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:
I'm anti woke

Were you choosing to add that gratuitous comment on the basis that you thought it might aid understanding of your case?  I'd suggest that someone feeling the need to advertise that fact may be more likely than most to cause offence, even if unintended....

Nice suggestion and confection of speculation. I mentioned that to put context to the fact I was being super sensitive and arguing against a genuine faux pas.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

GingerTim said:

'metaphorically emasculated' is one of the funniest things I've read on here.

Great! Glad you had a little internal levity!😁

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Brie said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

user1977 said:

Misandric? Well, yes I suppose you could pursue a case for sex discrimination. I expect the vast majority of customers they’ve barred for sexually harassing other customers are men - that seems like cast iron evidence in your favour. 

Let us know when the court case reaches the local paper…


Seriously though, they don’t need to give you any detail or reason. What made you think they would, given you already seem to accept the principle?

Of course I'm  not going to pursue it. It's a philosophical question. 

It was a false allegation and if ny gender was part of the decision making process, that is illegal.

Men are routinely mis-believed and metaphorically emasculated. I'm  an individual not all men. 

Thanks

Misandry, like sexual harassment, are very hard things to prove as it's so very often a he said/ she said situation.  I know that with sexual harassment your very innocent comment may be taken in a completely opposite way by the person you are addressing.  Add a bit of alcohol, possibly on their side in addition to yours, and misconstruing, taking 2 + 2 and making 5, are all very easy to have happen.   If you're bothered at all then do go back to the pub when it's quiet and ask what the problem was to ensure you can avoid it being repeated.  

And - fyi for you and others - you cannot be discriminated against because of your gender as gender is not a protected characteristic.  Sex discrimination (which may or may not have been what has happened here) is illegal as a person's sex a protected characteristic.   Many people use the word gender when they should be using the word sex or believe that gender should be considered a protected characteristic but it is not in UK law.

Discrimination: your rights: Types of discrimination ('protected characteristics') - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Hi,

Yes. Thanks for the kind and reflective input, I agree. Good comment. People are way more apt to be offended than they were 20 years ago. Everyone has turned being offended into a cottage industry. It's  hard to have a laugh with people anymore. Society has changed for the worse imo.

I meant sex discrimination, ie being male. But yes, There's a fundamental legal distinction. 

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Gavin83 said:

I think people are being unnecessarily harsh on you here. Theres no reason to disbelieve your version of events. It might not even be that these women complained. The manager might have misheard something you said or they might have had a description of someone who’d done something wrong and incorrectly identified you.

There have been times in my life I’ve been asked to leave a pub/bar when I’ve done nothing wrong. Sometimes aggressively, without even asking first. I once got thrown out a bar for being too drunk when I was driving that night and hadn’t touched a drop. Another time I was in a bar talking to my girlfriend when a bouncer shoved my arm up my back and threw me out. He then attempted to stop my girlfriend from leaving, trying to chat her up and when he realised he wasn’t getting anywhere came out and became very aggressive with me, to the point his colleagues had to get involved. Bar/security staff can be knobheads and can enjoy a power trip. I’ve only ever actually been barred from a pub once though, for underage drinking, which I was admittedly guilty of.

I also agree I’m not sure they’d act the same way if the genders were reversed. I’ve been sexually assaulted by women in bars/clubs before but you try getting the security staff to take that seriously. This was a while back when I was younger so maybe it would be treated differently now but I expect not.

Anyway back on topic. Ultimately though there’s little you can do about it. They don’t have to serve you. If you feel that angry about it then leave them some terrible reviews on the likes of tripadvisor but given it’s a Spoons I doubt it’ll make much difference. I sympathise though, it’s frustrating to be falsely accused of something, especially when you aren’t even told what that something is.

Thanks Gavin. I do feel some people are just completely dismissing what I'm saying based on their own internal machinations. Everything I've  said has been honest. I just wonder if I was a woman I'd have had the same terse and dare I say, cynical remarks. That may have underscored evidence for my initial musings about misandry. It is real and does exist. Whether I was subject to that is a different matter entirely, I was speculating..

I've  talked to another manager I know at a different branch and she's given me some advice.

Absolutely empathise with your anecdotes,  I've  had similar. Some barstaff/doorstaff are narcissistic bellends!

Thanks again for empathising.

Undervalued

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Pollycat said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

GingerTim said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Hi

Just a quick query about the legal, and practical, position I'm in after a visit to my High Street pub.

So I went to this pub a couple of nights ago, reasonably merry when I went. I went to the bar and ordered a cider. There were 3 women next to me and I had a quick chat about their drink.

I went and sat down and finished the drink and returned to the bar to order another.

Utterly unexpectedly the manager said I 'said something sexual' without elaborating and barred me for 6 months.  She didn’t think  even tell me what I was alleged to have said and to whom.

I didn’t say anything of the kind. I know all pubs are private premises but it seems to me that she took someone else's word and determined a course of action without even asking me anything.

I feel it was a little misandric. How can it be acceptable to bar someone without any elaboration?

Just interested out of curiosity that I may be being discriminated against.

Thanks

If you were already 'reasonably merry' when you arrived at the pub surely it's entirely conceivable you may have said something untoward?

I would not expect the manager to identify the complainant, particularly if it was a woman, for quite obvious reasons.

Misandric? Give over.

I know who the complainant was as I only talked to one group of girls at the bar about the colour of their drinks.

I'm  always polite and some weird sexual comment isn't me. 

In hindsight I should have found them and checked the veracity of what they said.

Is it possible I said something I don't  recall, probably  less than 1% chance as I was lucid. I was cycling!

Misandry, see the above thought experiment. I've had it done before, so you're wrong.

Thanks for the input.

Cycling!
Whilst being merry?
Really?
The height of stupidity.
Think total lucky that the worst thing that happened to you was you got battered from a pub for 6 months.

As for the 'in hindsight I should have found them...', I think you're very lucky that your hindsight didn't kick in.

3 pints for a 6ft 4 inch fit guy is utterly irrelevant to cycling safety, with all due respect. I've thought about it now and I don't think my comment was anything to do with the girls at the bar.

I think she mis-heard me at my table. It was extremely  loud in there. Just annoying I had no explanation.

Rubbish!

You would almost certainly have failed a driving breath test and would have been about three times over the limit to legally fly an aircraft.

Aylesbury_Duck

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Brie said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

user1977 said:

Misandric? Well, yes I suppose you could pursue a case for sex discrimination. I expect the vast majority of customers they’ve barred for sexually harassing other customers are men - that seems like cast iron evidence in your favour. 

Let us know when the court case reaches the local paper…


Seriously though, they don’t need to give you any detail or reason. What made you think they would, given you already seem to accept the principle?

Of course I'm  not going to pursue it. It's a philosophical question. 

It was a false allegation and if ny gender was part of the decision making process, that is illegal.

Men are routinely mis-believed and metaphorically emasculated. I'm  an individual not all men. 

Thanks

Misandry, like sexual harassment, are very hard things to prove as it's so very often a he said/ she said situation.  I know that with sexual harassment your very innocent comment may be taken in a completely opposite way by the person you are addressing.  Add a bit of alcohol, possibly on their side in addition to yours, and misconstruing, taking 2 + 2 and making 5, are all very easy to have happen.   If you're bothered at all then do go back to the pub when it's quiet and ask what the problem was to ensure you can avoid it being repeated.  

And - fyi for you and others - you cannot be discriminated against because of your gender as gender is not a protected characteristic.  Sex discrimination (which may or may not have been what has happened here) is illegal as a person's sex a protected characteristic.   Many people use the word gender when they should be using the word sex or believe that gender should be considered a protected characteristic but it is not in UK law.

Discrimination: your rights: Types of discrimination ('protected characteristics') - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Everyone has turned being offended into a cottage industry. It's  hard to have a laugh with people anymore. Society has changed for the worse imo.

They really haven't  What's changed - for the better - is that bigoted/racist/sexist/lewd/inappropriate comments are being called out for what they are: pathetic, unfunny and unnecessary.  It's not hard to have a laugh with people at all, unless one's the sort of person that makes bigoted/racist/sexist/lewd/inappropriate comments that most reasonable, decent people find tragically embarrassing at best, and unwelcome at worst.  The only people unhappy with this progress are those that want a free pass to make bigoted/racist/sexist/lewd/inappropriate comments without consequence and get upset when there are consequences.  Those people generally make more noise and a 'cottage industry' out of things than those being genuinely offended.  It's why they're usually found at comedy gigs from the 1970s, shouting at GB News or telling anyone who'll listen that they're being silenced.

Exodi

If I had a penny for every time an intoxicated person suggests they were chucked out from a pub 'for no reason', I wouldn't need to be on a money saving forum.