EV Discussion thread

Martyn1981

Exiled_Tyke said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

My Dad had a diesel VW Passat. He changed it for the PHEV version.  Most of his journeys are local and he regularly goes a couple of months without using any petrol.  However a few times a year my parents will take longer trips across the country. The PHEV is perfect for their needs and was the most cost effective solution when they bought the car. 

Hiya ET. Out of interest, how have they found the experience? I'm assuming they enjoy the EV side of it if they are minimising petrol use. They must be charging regularly and conscientiously too.

So .......... has this built up their confidence and enjoyment about electric driving? Do you think they would go PHEV again in the future, or leaning towards BEV now? Just a shame supply can't meet demand, and the impact that's having on price.


Linked to this, I've been thinking about Petrix's comment, which shocked me at first (no offence Petrix) with the words 'prejudice or ignorance', but then I thought about it for a while, and it's true (at the lighter end of their meaning), that we are all naturally prejudiced against change, it's hard wired into us, as change could be dangerous. Also most people (nearly wrote 'vast majority' but times are changing) will be ignorant about BEV's, we're all ignorant about new stuff till we learn, and I think most people have no idea just how easy and fun BEV's are to drive.

I suspect that supply limitations of BEV's will be a problem long after prejudice and ignorance have been minimised.

JKenH

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

It’s not ignorance, it’s people making personal choices based on what matters to them. Why do some people presume others are ignorant because they make different lifestyle choices? I don’t see the point of people buying a coffee from Costa in a paper cup when I can make myself a coffee in a flask for a tenth of the price or less. I don’t presume them to be ignorant, they just place a different value on a cup of coffee. It’s freedom of choice and long may it continue.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

My Dad had a diesel VW Passat. He changed it for the PHEV version.  Most of his journeys are local and he regularly goes a couple of months without using any petrol.  However a few times a year my parents will take longer trips across the country. The PHEV is perfect for their needs and was the most cost effective solution when they bought the car. 

Hiya ET. Out of interest, how have they found the experience? I'm assuming they enjoy the EV side of it if they are minimising petrol use. They must be charging regularly and conscientiously too.

So .......... has this built up their confidence and enjoyment about electric driving? Do you think they would go PHEV again in the future, or leaning towards BEV now? Just a shame supply can't meet demand, and the impact that's having on price.


Linked to this, I've been thinking about Petrix's comment, which shocked me at first (no offence Petrix) with the words 'prejudice or ignorance', but then I thought about it for a while, and it's true (at the lighter end of their meaning), that we are all naturally prejudiced against change, it's hard wired into us, as change could be dangerous. Also most people (nearly wrote 'vast majority' but times are changing) will be ignorant about BEV's, we're all ignorant about new stuff till we learn, and I think most people have no idea just how easy and fun BEV's are to drive.

I suspect that supply limitations of BEV's will be a problem long after prejudice and ignorance have been minimised.

It’s not just BEVs, PHEVs are also in short supply, as indeed are ICEvs. The waiting list for many Land Rovers is a year.

I think in addition to being naturally prejudiced against change we also are naturally prejudiced against those who reject our own lifestyle choices, as though it is some slight on us personally. People will seek to justify their own  lifestyle choices ahead of alternatives, particularly if they have recently made such a choice, and particularly if that choice is quite a change to their previous one. It’s a form of confirmation bias. If we buy a new car it is natural to want to read good reviews and hear good things about it and it may upset/annoy us to read or hear anything negative. 

Most new EV owners are particularly evangelical about their choice and indeed often about their particular model. It is difficult for someone who feels the need to be respected to acknowledge flaws in their choice as it puts into doubt their judgement. You get the same with ICE and PHEV drivers. We all want to justify the choices we have made because if we don’t we think people will think we made a bad choice. As a result we find it hard to acknowledge that other people faced with the same facts could make a different choice. We might even end up calling them ignorant or prejudiced. They’re not; they are just like us defending a lifestyle choice they have made using their particular version of man maths or ‘facts’. 

It will be a big problem for EV adoption when we as a minority of the car owning public, start telling the majority they are ignorant and prejudiced. Does that suddenly make them see the light? No, it makes them all the more resistant to make the change.

If we want to get people on board with EVs I would suggest the best way is not to be superior or dogmatic (and certainly not label them as ignorant or prejudiced) but to be honest about why it works for you and why it may not work for others and let them work out which camp they fall into. Otherwise we might have a repeat of Brexit all over again. 

2nd_time_buyer

JKenH said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

It’s not ignorance, it’s people making personal choices based on what matters to them. Why do some people presume others are ignorant because they make different lifestyle choices? I don’t see the point of people buying a coffee from Costa in a paper cup when I can make myself a coffee in a flask for a tenth of the price or less. I don’t presume them to be ignorant, they just place a different value on a cup of coffee. It’s freedom of choice and long may it continue.

It is a funny word "ignorant". It comes across as an insult when often it is meant as unaware or uninformed. 

I think it is fair to say, if you have never driven a BEV or studied them in detail then it might be difficult to know how it would work for you. The same with solar panels. It always tickles me how you often have two or more houses together with panels - you can imagine how the conversations between neighbours led to an outbreak.

Exiled_Tyke

Martyn1981 said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

My Dad had a diesel VW Passat. He changed it for the PHEV version.  Most of his journeys are local and he regularly goes a couple of months without using any petrol.  However a few times a year my parents will take longer trips across the country. The PHEV is perfect for their needs and was the most cost effective solution when they bought the car. 

Hiya ET. Out of interest, how have they found the experience? I'm assuming they enjoy the EV side of it if they are minimising petrol use. They must be charging regularly and conscientiously too.

So .......... has this built up their confidence and enjoyment about electric driving? Do you think they would go PHEV again in the future, or leaning towards BEV now? Just a shame supply can't meet demand, and the impact that's having on price.


Linked to this, I've been thinking about Petrix's comment, which shocked me at first (no offence Petrix) with the words 'prejudice or ignorance', but then I thought about it for a while, and it's true (at the lighter end of their meaning), that we are all naturally prejudiced against change, it's hard wired into us, as change could be dangerous. Also most people (nearly wrote 'vast majority' but times are changing) will be ignorant about BEV's, we're all ignorant about new stuff till we learn, and I think most people have no idea just how easy and fun BEV's are to drive.

I suspect that supply limitations of BEV's will be a problem long after prejudice and ignorance have been minimised.

The PHEV was a good solution for them for a number of reasons: 

1. The Passat had been researched to meet their needs to the move to the PHEV was an easy decision 
2. Availability of suitable second hand vehicles in the right price range. More PHEVs than BEVs at the time. 
3. I'm not sure it is prejudice or ignorance but I think there are valid psychological reasons for moving away from FF s by stages including wanting to see success of the technology and definitely fear of charging availability especially on their trips to far flung corners of the countryside away from large towns and motorways.  (And some foreign travel to come too). 

The question of whether to now go to BEV is an interesting one and I shall ask them.  They are fully supportive and indeed excited by my intention to go to a BEV but I'm not sure they would do it themselves.  I think things will change a lot in the next few years and if my BEV experience is successful it may well sway them. 

But all in all I think your last point on overall availability and price is probably the most relevant.   We've discussed a number of reasons why the move away from ICE may not be smooth.  I don't think we need to punish those who can't afford to change their petrol or diesel car, nor criticise those who move via a PHEV (a decision I may yet make myself).  If technology, governments, the motor industry and charging networks make the right decisions we'll move in the right direction (pardon the pun) without having to lay blame on consumers making the decisions that are right for them. 

shinytop

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

But they cost £50k or more.  Just stop and say that out loud. Fifty. Thousand. Pounds.  I am not spending that much money on a car, not ever.  

About half my miles are 250 mile plus round trips with a bit of running around at the destination.  The rest is the often quoted few miles a day, rarely more than 50.  I have no time to search out and top up using public chargers in their current state. I will happily take the predictable 5 minutes it takes to fill up with petrol though.  

I would like an EV but the current offerings and infrastructure just don't  meet my needs.   

  

Petriix

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

But they cost £50k or more.  Just stop and say that out loud. Fifty. Thousand. Pounds.  I am not spending that much money on a car, not ever.  

About half my miles are 250 mile plus round trips with a bit of running around at the destination.  The rest is the often quoted few miles a day, rarely more than 50.  I have no time to search out and top up using public chargers in their current state. I will happily take the predictable 5 minutes it takes to fill up with petrol though.  

I would like an EV but the current offerings and infrastructure just don't  meet my needs.   

  

Each EV mile will cost you 2p at current Octopus Go rates and certainly average out under 5p including public charging - assuming you have home charging available. At 20k miles per year, you annual fuel saving is around £4k; that's £333 towards the monthly payment on whatever EV you go for. And, assuming those are business miles, you're still able to claim £7k of expenses (if it's your own vehicle), or take advantage of the generous tax breaks if it's a company car or bought through a business etc.

The time for seeking out chargers is a fair point, depending on your usage. But you'd likely be able to charge sufficiently at natural comfort and meal breaks and Teslas have the supercharger network; and that's only on the occasions that you drive over 300 miles in the day.

1961Nick

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

But they cost £50k or more.  Just stop and say that out loud. Fifty. Thousand. Pounds.  I am not spending that much money on a car, not ever.  

About half my miles are 250 mile plus round trips with a bit of running around at the destination.  The rest is the often quoted few miles a day, rarely more than 50.  I have no time to search out and top up using public chargers in their current state. I will happily take the predictable 5 minutes it takes to fill up with petrol though.  

I would like an EV but the current offerings and infrastructure just don't  meet my needs.   

  

Each EV mile will cost you 2p at current Octopus Go rates and certainly average out under 5p including public charging - assuming you have home charging available. At 20k miles per year, you annual fuel saving is around £4k; that's £333 towards the monthly payment on whatever EV you go for. And, assuming those are business miles, you're still able to claim £7k of expenses (if it's your own vehicle), or take advantage of the generous tax breaks if it's a company car or bought through a business etc.

The time for seeking out chargers is a fair point, depending on your usage. But you'd likely be able to charge sufficiently at natural comfort and meal breaks and Teslas have the supercharger network; and that's only on the occasions that you drive over 300 miles in the day.

My saving on diesel for the last 12 months is £4282 (just over 18,000 miles). £350/month is a long way towards a finance payment for those that don't buy outright.

Petriix

2nd_time_buyer said:

JKenH said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

It’s not ignorance, it’s people making personal choices based on what matters to them. Why do some people presume others are ignorant because they make different lifestyle choices? I don’t see the point of people buying a coffee from Costa in a paper cup when I can make myself a coffee in a flask for a tenth of the price or less. I don’t presume them to be ignorant, they just place a different value on a cup of coffee. It’s freedom of choice and long may it continue.

It is a funny word "ignorant". It comes across as an insult when often it is meant as unaware or uninformed. 

I think it is fair to say, if you have never driven a BEV or studied them in detail then it might be difficult to know how it would work for you. The same with solar panels. It always tickles me how you often have two or more houses together with panels - you can imagine how the conversations between neighbours led to an outbreak.

Yes, I certainly intended those words in their literal sense rather than as insults. I encounter a fair amount of prejudice against EVs based on incorrect assumptions about the practicality of ownership.

I'm usually fine with people making their own choices about things, but hybrid cars are being banned in 2035 for a reason; in my opinion it should be a lot sooner. The 'self charging' myth and the perpetuation of the idea that hybrids are somehow good for the environment are part of a campaign by legacy manufacturers and the fossil fuel companies to squeeze as much profit as they can before their products become obsolete. That's the 'ignorance'. I've had so many conversations with people who seem baffled by the idea that there is a fundamental difference between a hybrid and a BEV.

But I think it's more fundamental than that. There's an overriding belief that everyone needs to retain the exact capability of their existing ICEV in an EV. People talk about having 600 miles of range and being able to refuel in 5 minutes as if those are the most important factors. They are often ignorant of their actual needs because they haven't needed to know what minimum range they really require. A PHEV allows people to maintain that lack of awareness whereas an EV requires a commitment to understanding how far you actually drive and a degree of adaptation.

Martyn1981

Exiled_Tyke said:

Martyn1981 said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

My Dad had a diesel VW Passat. He changed it for the PHEV version.  Most of his journeys are local and he regularly goes a couple of months without using any petrol.  However a few times a year my parents will take longer trips across the country. The PHEV is perfect for their needs and was the most cost effective solution when they bought the car. 

Hiya ET. Out of interest, how have they found the experience? I'm assuming they enjoy the EV side of it if they are minimising petrol use. They must be charging regularly and conscientiously too.

So .......... has this built up their confidence and enjoyment about electric driving? Do you think they would go PHEV again in the future, or leaning towards BEV now? Just a shame supply can't meet demand, and the impact that's having on price.


Linked to this, I've been thinking about Petrix's comment, which shocked me at first (no offence Petrix) with the words 'prejudice or ignorance', but then I thought about it for a while, and it's true (at the lighter end of their meaning), that we are all naturally prejudiced against change, it's hard wired into us, as change could be dangerous. Also most people (nearly wrote 'vast majority' but times are changing) will be ignorant about BEV's, we're all ignorant about new stuff till we learn, and I think most people have no idea just how easy and fun BEV's are to drive.

I suspect that supply limitations of BEV's will be a problem long after prejudice and ignorance have been minimised.

The PHEV was a good solution for them for a number of reasons: 

1. The Passat had been researched to meet their needs to the move to the PHEV was an easy decision 
2. Availability of suitable second hand vehicles in the right price range. More PHEVs than BEVs at the time. 
3. I'm not sure it is prejudice or ignorance but I think there are valid psychological reasons for moving away from FF s by stages including wanting to see success of the technology and definitely fear of charging availability especially on their trips to far flung corners of the countryside away from large towns and motorways.  (And some foreign travel to come too). 

The question of whether to now go to BEV is an interesting one and I shall ask them.  They are fully supportive and indeed excited by my intention to go to a BEV but I'm not sure they would do it themselves.  I think things will change a lot in the next few years and if my BEV experience is successful it may well sway them. 

But all in all I think your last point on overall availability and price is probably the most relevant.   We've discussed a number of reasons why the move away from ICE may not be smooth.  I don't think we need to punish those who can't afford to change their petrol or diesel car, nor criticise those who move via a PHEV (a decision I may yet make myself).  If technology, governments, the motor industry and charging networks make the right decisions we'll move in the right direction (pardon the pun) without having to lay blame on consumers making the decisions that are right for them. 

Thanks ET, really interesting, and your point 2. really stood out for me, as I suspect there was next to no suitable SH BEV's available. I remember when the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV was leading the charge. As I said, PHEV's have played a major role in the transition.

I think general knowledge amongst the public about BEV's will grow fast now (perhaps a better way to word things, than ignorance reducing). I also suspect (hope) that underneath some of the fears folk may have, is a sneaky excitement to have a play with a BEV. But it's so addictive!

Good times ahead.