EV Discussion thread

QrizB

an interesting article from Wired on EVs in China:

https://www.wired.com/story/china-ev-infrastructure-charging

Apologies if it's been shared here before, I don't recall seeing it.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:  

Each EV mile will cost you 2p at current Octopus Go rates and certainly average out under 5p including public charging - assuming you have home charging available. 

Petriix said:
the MG5 was under £19k including discounts at launch.

Sorry, but you regularly base your discussion on getting an EV on parameters that are not around and cannot be obtained by the new convert.
I have just checked the Octopus website and there are no tariffs offered below price cap for new joiners.
The price of an MG5 a couple of years ago on affinity offers that are now suspended is also irrelevant.

Discussions have far more credibility if based on what can actually be got rather on what there are some legacy customer still enjoying, which will naturally time-expire.

shinytop

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

But they cost £50k or more.  Just stop and say that out loud. Fifty. Thousand. Pounds.  I am not spending that much money on a car, not ever.  

About half my miles are 250 mile plus round trips with a bit of running around at the destination.  The rest is the often quoted few miles a day, rarely more than 50.  I have no time to search out and top up using public chargers in their current state. I will happily take the predictable 5 minutes it takes to fill up with petrol though.  

I would like an EV but the current offerings and infrastructure just don't  meet my needs.   

  

Each EV mile will cost you 2p at current Octopus Go rates and certainly average out under 5p including public charging - assuming you have home charging available. At 20k miles per year, you annual fuel saving is around £4k; that's £333 towards the monthly payment on whatever EV you go for. And, assuming those are business miles, you're still able to claim £7k of expenses (if it's your own vehicle), or take advantage of the generous tax breaks if it's a company car or bought through a business etc.

The time for seeking out chargers is a fair point, depending on your usage. But you'd likely be able to charge sufficiently at natural comfort and meal breaks and Teslas have the supercharger network; and that's only on the occasions that you drive over 300 miles in the day.

I had a quick look on lease prices and a TM3 LR costs over £800 a month.  That's every month, for 4 years, total cost to me, out of taxed income, £40k.  At 15k miles a year, even if I could get Octopus Go and charge up enough in the few hours of cheap rate it just doesn't work financially.  I will get an EV some time, probably before I have to but it won't be for financial reasons.

JKenH

QrizB said:

an interesting article from Wired on EVs in China:

https://www.wired.com/story/china-ev-infrastructure-charging

Apologies if it's been shared here before, I don't recall seeing it.

Below your article was  a link to this article.

The World Can’t Wean Itself Off Chinese Lithium

China dominates the global supply chain for lithium-ion batteries. Now rival countries are scrambling for more control over “white oil.”

China’s share of the market for lithium-ion batteries could be as high as 80 percent, according to estimates from BloombergNEF.

It takes years to get a lithium processing plant or gigafactory off the ground, and it could take decades and an estimated $175 billion for the US to catch up to China. China controls at least two-thirds of the world’s lithium processing capacity, and it’s this more than anything that could give it a stranglehold on the battery market for years to come.

https://www.wired.com/story/china-lithium-mining-production/

Should we be getting into a situation where we are so dependent on China. I know it is a hobby horse of mine. I have nothing against Chinese products, but how have we become so reliant on a country that is ideologically opposed to the West? 

JKenH

It seems that in other parts of the world the difference between the cost of a PHEV and BEV is greater than in the UK. This from Canada:

While the battery electric vehicles offered by Hyundai begin at $46,000, the company’s plug-in hybrid electric vehicle — an intermediate transition technology that combines both gasoline and battery — starts at $30,000

https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicles/im-just-trying-to-get-as-many-as-i-can-surging-gas-prices-stoke-demand-for-electric-cars

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:  

Each EV mile will cost you 2p at current Octopus Go rates and certainly average out under 5p including public charging - assuming you have home charging available. 

Petriix said:
the MG5 was under £19k including discounts at launch.

Sorry, but you regularly base your discussion on getting an EV on parameters that are not around and cannot be obtained by the new convert.
I have just checked the Octopus website and there are no tariffs offered below price cap for new joiners.
The price of an MG5 a couple of years ago on affinity offers that are now suspended is also irrelevant.

Discussions have far more credibility if based on what can actually be got rather on what there are some legacy customer still enjoying, which will naturally time-expire.

Octopus Go very much is available to new customers. Granted you will have to spend up to 14 days on the standard variable while they establish communication with your smart meter; it took me just 3 days when I joined in January... https://octopus.energy/go/

Taken in context my comment about the MG5 price is about how I couldn't afford a (hypothetical) Passat BEV at £40k+.

I'm not sure why you keep pretending that Octopus Go isn't available anymore. 

Petriix

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

I'm sure people will keep buying PHEVs, same as they'll keep buying unchargeable hybrids. But that's not because they're the best choice. There are a tiny set of circumstances where a hybrid would make sense. For the vast majority of people a full BEV would be fine, for almost all of the rest, a reasonably economical diesel would work out cheaper (to buy and run). It's mostly ignorance and prejudice which keeps people buying hybrids.

I don't think having the need to travel 250-300 miles regularly without recharging is a tiny set of circumstances.  A reasonably priced PHEV with a decent range would suit a lot of people and not everyone wants to run an old diesel.  

For the vast majority of people it's not prejudice or ignorance that's stopping them buying a full BEV.

Actually it objectively is a tiny minority of car journeys. That's the ignorance part: most people virtually never drive more than 100 miles in a day, let alone the 300 miles which would make it challenging in most modern BEVs. What you call 'the vast majority' are actually a very small minority.

And, if you really are travelling 250-300 miles regularly, there are EVs perfectly suited to that distance which would save you an enormous amount on fuel. On long journeys PHEVs don't work out any more efficient than a diesel car.

But they cost £50k or more.  Just stop and say that out loud. Fifty. Thousand. Pounds.  I am not spending that much money on a car, not ever.  

About half my miles are 250 mile plus round trips with a bit of running around at the destination.  The rest is the often quoted few miles a day, rarely more than 50.  I have no time to search out and top up using public chargers in their current state. I will happily take the predictable 5 minutes it takes to fill up with petrol though.  

I would like an EV but the current offerings and infrastructure just don't  meet my needs.   

  

Each EV mile will cost you 2p at current Octopus Go rates and certainly average out under 5p including public charging - assuming you have home charging available. At 20k miles per year, you annual fuel saving is around £4k; that's £333 towards the monthly payment on whatever EV you go for. And, assuming those are business miles, you're still able to claim £7k of expenses (if it's your own vehicle), or take advantage of the generous tax breaks if it's a company car or bought through a business etc.

The time for seeking out chargers is a fair point, depending on your usage. But you'd likely be able to charge sufficiently at natural comfort and meal breaks and Teslas have the supercharger network; and that's only on the occasions that you drive over 300 miles in the day.

I had a quick look on lease prices and a TM3 LR costs over £800 a month.  That's every month, for 4 years, total cost to me, out of taxed income, £40k.  At 15k miles a year, even if I could get Octopus Go and charge up enough in the few hours of cheap rate it just doesn't work financially.  I will get an EV some time, probably before I have to but it won't be for financial reasons.

Of all the ways to procure an EV, leasing out of your post tax income is probably the last thing I'd advise right now. Depending on your tax rate, salary sacrifice could work out more like £500 per month. With the ~ £300 fuel savings, £200 per month net cost to drive a brand new Tesla doesn't seem so bad. Especially if you have a current vehicle to sell (or stop paying for each month).

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

I'm not sure why you keep pretending that Octopus Go isn't available anymore. 

I'm not pretending.

I visited the Octopus website and selected "get a quote" which took me to "join Octopus Energy" page, which reads:

"Energy prices are at record highs, and most homes will be better off staying with their current energy supplier right now.  If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.  Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap."

I read that and clicked "I would still like a quote" which then simply says:

"With global energy prices at record highs, you're unlikely to be better off by switching at this time."

Clear discouragement for new customers.

Petriix said:

I couldn't afford a (hypothetical) Passat BEV at £40k+.

A Passat BEV at £40k would be an absolute bargain!
Regular Passat estate is "from" £32k

Petriix said:

Of all the ways to procure an EV, leasing out of your post tax income is probably the last thing I'd advise right now. Depending on your tax rate, salary sacrifice could work out more like £500 per month. 

Only for those that can take advantage of SS EV car scheme.
It is not everybody.

How do you advise anyone not able to use SS is to get an EV?  Like, pensioners....

There are also a lack of models in current EV's to suit some quite common needs / aspirations in terms of car types.

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

I'm not sure why you keep pretending that Octopus Go isn't available anymore. 

I'm not pretending.

I visited the Octopus website and selected "get a quote" which took me to "join Octopus Energy" page, which reads:

"Energy prices are at record highs, and most homes will be better off staying with their current energy supplier right now.  If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.  Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap."

I read that and clicked "I would still like a quote" which then simply says:

"With global energy prices at record highs, you're unlikely to be better off by switching at this time."

Clear discouragement for new customers.

Petriix said:

I couldn't afford a (hypothetical) Passat BEV at £40k+.

A Passat BEV at £40k would be an absolute bargain!
Regular Passat estate is "from" £32k

Petriix said:

Of all the ways to procure an EV, leasing out of your post tax income is probably the last thing I'd advise right now. Depending on your tax rate, salary sacrifice could work out more like £500 per month. 

Only for those that can take advantage of SS EV car scheme.
It is not everybody.

How do you advise anyone not able to use SS is to get an EV?  Like, pensioners....

There are also a lack of models in current EV's to suit some quite common needs / aspirations in terms of car types.

You obviously missed the bit on the Octopus website that states:

If you think that's incorrect and would like a personalised quote, please call and speak to one of our experts on 08081693274 with your current energy prices to hand. Our lines are open 9am - 5pm Monday to Thursday and 9am - 4pm on Friday.

I wouldn't recommend an EV for everyone right now. You have to a) have off street parking suitable for charging at home; b) be able to have a smart meter which reliably sends 30 minute data; and c) have a compatible driving pattern.

For C, that means not regularly needing to drive further than you can cover with cheap home charging (or free work charging etc.).

My point is that I wouldn't recommend a hybrid of any description to anyone. Either you can't make an EV work (so you should stick with ICE) or you can (so you should go full EV). Hybrids solve a nonexistent problem. They are overly complex, expensive to maintain and ultimately don't offer sufficient efficiency over ICE to justify the expense or carbon footprint.

And I think that far more people could comfortably switch to BEV than realise. It just takes a slight adaptation of the mindset of travelling as fast as possible. 

As for acquiring an EV, I'd recommend outright purchase for anyone who can't make use of the tax breaks - again, not for everyone, but those who can... should . I do think many of the bargains have permanently disappeared but we're all having to adjust to the cost of everything increasing massively. 

Martyn1981

Petriix said:

My point is that I wouldn't recommend a hybrid of any description to anyone. Either you can't make an EV work (so you should stick with ICE) or you can (so you should go full EV). Hybrids solve a nonexistent problem. They are overly complex, expensive to maintain and ultimately don't offer sufficient efficiency over ICE to justify the expense or carbon footprint.

And I think that far more people could comfortably switch to BEV than realise. It just takes a slight adaptation of the mindset of travelling as fast as possible. 

Actually, I can think of a good situation. This may sound weird but it's built on everything that both you and ET have said, and also some extreme mental gymnastics by me ..... so don't take it too seriously.

What has jumped out at me the most is that the majority of people won't yet know how good BEV's are (putting aside the ability to buy or charge them), and will be a bit scared of changing. Also we can add in those that are interested in moving to a BEV, but can't find what they need yet, or need a bit of confidence building.

This all points quite nicely to what ET has described, regarding SH PHEV's. They could, and I hope will, build confidence in full BEV's, by showing what is possible.

Of course I'm being very idealistic now, but that could work well to move folk through their concerns and into the seat of a BEV later on. I'm also guessing, that a PHEV with 'decent' range, will bring home how little longer distance driving most people do (not all of course) on a regular basis. So some may start to ponder how many longer trips they do, and how many stops may be needed.

So, if the UK keeps buying PHEV's at say 5-10%, and SH PHEV's change hands regularly, they could be a good educational tool for those with BEV potential.

Sorry if this makes little sense, I can see an idea/picture in my head, but can't bring it into focus enough to like word proper.


Little story from an EV thread on the Motoring Forum, perhaps 3yrs ago(ish). A lady on there does a lot of driving, nearly 50k miles pa, ironically as an insurance assessor. She explained that she gets a car change every two years. Last time she commented I think she had a Kona (or maybe a Niro). But going back two cars she had a BMW I3 Rx, so akin to a PHEV. After two years use, she got a replacement and decided to get a BMW I3, as she'd used the Rx (part) so little.

Crucially, she does her paperwork when charging - so I appreciate not a normal long distance driver scenario, but really made me think as these comments were before we dipped our toes in the waters with an ickle Leaf.