Is it time for restaurant tips to stop being added to bills ?

prowla

For me, the tip is to reward good service; if its included and the service has not been good then I'll say I don't agree to pay it.

When I go to a restaurant I want to enjoy my meal and the service is part of the experience.

RogerBareford

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?

Again, you will have to remind me where I suggested this.

That would be here

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges.

I'll ignore the ridiculous comments about "splash your cash to make yourself look better".  

So I didn't suggest anything like what you claim and you just made something silly up. You also failed to address your other equally silly made up comment.

Maybe if you could show me the legislation that says tips are required then you could convince me rather than relying on words like 'tradition' and 'standard' which is nothing more than ridiculous attempt at emotional blackmail. 

This is a money saving site not one for trying to bully others into paying something they are not legally or morally obliged to.

No, you said exactly that.  

Nobody is trying to force you to do anything.  We know a lot of people don't tip.  It's your prerogative to get away with paying as little as you can for anything, at whoever's expense.  You can call that "money saving" if you like.

I looked back and I definitely didn't say the comments that you are trying to attribute to me. I assume your use of 'exactly' is a bit like the young'uns use of 'literally' these days.

So we are 100% aligned that there is no moral or legal obligation to tip so why the continued use of 'emotional blackmail' in your comments?

Years ago those in the service industry said they would much rather their pay be upped to the minimum wage rather than having to rely on tips - they asked for it - they got it. At the time, I remember posting, on this site, that they would probably still expect tips on top of this rise and there will be those that still believe they need to pay them.

I can just imagine a call centre worker on minimum wage going into a restaurant and falling for the spin, or feeling they are being bullied into leaving a tip. Yet I have never seen serving staff leaving a tip for call centre workers. The two jobs are comparable in pay scales and delivering a personal service.

I haven't criticised those that want to tip (I might think they are a bit gullible falling for old outdated traditions, or maybe they just like to show off in front of their mates, or 101 other reasons), so please stop trying to infer that those that do not tip are, in any way, wrong - they aren't, such inference is bad advice.

In some countries it is actually considered rude and insulting to tip.

Then, when you are in those countries, don't.  In this country is it expected that people do tip, and waiting staff are paid accordingly.  The fact that they get minimum wage is neither here nor there, however often you repeat it.    Plenty of people are paid more than minimum wage, and charge you fees for services that mean they can be so paid, but it's only with waiting staff, because it's optional, that you think it's some sort of an imposition on you.

I agree that it should be done away with and they should just increase the price of the meal, so people with your mindset will be legally obliged to pay for the service they are getting.  

The idea that you think everyone tipping is "showing off" is just incredible.  

I disagree that it is expected that people do tip in this country because it's not like the US where waiting staff have a lower minimum wage in some states and tips are expected to make it up, we have the same minimum wage for all jobs in this country.

If your going to a standard restaurant then a job where someone comes and takes your order and delivers your food is realistically barely worth minimum wage. This may sound offensive to waiting staff but it's not because i'm saying the job is barely worth minimum wage based on what it entails. The people who carry out the job will likely have skills and qualifications that make them worth far more but people get paid based on the job they choose to do and not what they are worth as a person.

If you go into a standard pub restaurant like Wetherspoons or Hungry Horse then you don't really expect much from the service so people working there at a minimum wage level of job is perfectly adequate.

In higher end restaurants with high levels of service where wait staff are trained to a high level then yes they certainly should be paid more but this should be included in the price of the food.

So i agree that wages should be paid to account for no tips being received but i don't think it would really increase prices in low to mid quality restaurants.

mrsmartmoney

Ath_Wat said:

Would you be happy if all restaurants ban tipping, increase prices by 10% and increase wages of staff accordingly?  Somewhere like Japan, where there is not tipping, it is because the tip is essentially included in the price.  In the USA, where tipping is expected, menu prices are much cheaper because they don't have to cover waiting staff wages.

But it’s not cheap anymore - that’s the issue with the USA now. 

mrsmartmoney

I went to Tonkukotsu yesterday - ironically a Japanese restaurant, we all know in Japan tips are a no no (and the food is very good btw, great value lunch menu) and they ask for tips at a higher 12.5%.

But that’s not my point, they expect you to order with your smartphone and pay when ordering, that payment included an optional tip.

How can you be expected to pay a tip before you even start ?

I feel tips should only be left at the end and for above normal service - this is a tax doing it before you have had your experience (as I guess a meal could be called!). 

Tips should be for when someone has made an effort and gone out of their way to make your meal more fun and enjoyable.

With the massive inflationary price increases happening, people will just stop eating out if things like service keep getting increased. A tipping point (if I may !)… 

Surely for a restaurant it’s better to have the customer than not, it covers the wages of the staff and profit. So stop adding the tips and leave them for the customer to decide, without feeling awkward 

IvanOpinion

mrsmartmoney said:

But that’s not my point, they expect you to order with your smartphone and pay when ordering, that payment included an optional tip.

How can you be expected to pay a tip before you even start ?

I feel tips should only be left at the end and for above normal service - this is a tax doing it before you have had your experience (as I guess a meal could be called!). 

Tips should be for when someone has made an effort and gone out of their way to make your meal more fun and enjoyable.

When I used to tip, before servers received the pay rise they asked for instead of tips, I would never have tipped before the meal - that is just the restaurant bolstering profits. However, in this mobile age restaurants that demand tips before service would concern me. If you remove the tip until such times as you see if the food and service is actually worth more than the price charged, would they do anything to your food?

JohnnyB70

hangryconsumer said:

Ath_Wat said:

I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

Whoa whoa hold your horses here. You're not screwing the little guy over, it's the capitalist system that is. We're all just pawns, taxpaying slaves. The real winners are the rich people milking the poor for their labour value. I don't earn minimum wage but I still feel like a tax paying slave for the CEO of my company earning multiple times what I do.

CEOs pay tax too.

Quite a lot more than you if they are earning more.

misimp

I query the idea that tipping should be in any way an 'obligation'

With regards to eating out I invariably leave a couple of pounds (rarely more than £5) as a gesture to show appreciation

I agree with others who argue that there are many more arduous jobs where the remuneration is the national minimum wage - and there is absolutely no-one arguing that they should be included on the list of those considered worthy of a tip

I would also point out that there is absolutely no way  that I would fall for the old '10% is the norm' ...unless or until someone can explain why the staff in an upmarket expensive eatery are worth more than  those in a reasonably priced family restaurant

The 10% rule is farcical when you are paying way over the odds for a bottle of wine only to pay an EXTRA 10% for the privilege of someone bringing it to your table

Bottom line is that anyone running a restaurant -as opposed to a MacD (where the staff all work considerably harder) - should understand that part of the deal is to serve the food to the table and that part is not a chargeable extra

misimp

JohnnyB70 said:

hangryconsumer said:

Ath_Wat said:

I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

Whoa whoa hold your horses here. You're not screwing the little guy over, it's the capitalist system that is. We're all just pawns, taxpaying slaves. The real winners are the rich people milking the poor for their labour value. I don't earn minimum wage but I still feel like a tax paying slave for the CEO of my company earning multiple times what I do.

CEOs pay tax too.

Quite a lot more than you if they are earning more.

Indeed but when you consider their various tax dodges and VAT evasion, their total taxation is not pro-rata to the average Joe

And, of course, by the same token  waiters in high price establishment earn for more in tips than their brethren in the cheaper restaurants

misimp

Small restaurant, 30 covers, average £30 a head, = £90 to share between , say 4 staff = £22.50 each
Average shift 4 hours = over £5 per hour on top of their wages - takes them way way beyond any concept of 'minimum wage'

Wife used to work 2 evenings a week  as a waitress, she frequently made more from that than from her full time job

username

What I (somewhat) object to is the "discretionary" service charge being added to the bill by default which can be anything from 10-15% I have seen. Surely the cost of providing the food/drink itself (costs of staff, utilities, rent etc) are worked into the margin of the dishes.

For those that have worked in the hospitality industry where do service charges go?

Do the serving and kitchen staff ever see them, or is it a "tip" for the management?

I do sometimes try and get it removed and leave a cash tip to the waiting staff. After all, whilst they are paid minimum wage they do deserve a small reward without the skim of Rishi's 33.25% tax and NI.