Is it time for restaurant tips to stop being added to bills ?

Ath_Wat

F1shyFingers said:

Ath_Wat said:

The_Unready said:

Ath_Wat said:

Would you be happy if all restaurants ban tipping, increase prices by 10% and increase wages of staff accordingly?  Somewhere like Japan, where there is not tipping, it is because the tip is essentially included in the price.  In the USA, where tipping is expected, menu prices are much cheaper because they don't have to cover waiting staff wages.

Yes, I'd be happy with that because it would allow me to make like-for-like comparisons of restaurants based on price, for example, without me having to try and factor in unknown costs related to mandatory or optional tips, service charges and the like.

I'd be happy with that as well; just wondering whether the OP would, or whether what they really want is just cheaper meals.  because in that case there are better things to make reductions on than the wages of poorly paid staff.

We have a minimum wage law in the UK, so why do they need to be paid extra?

You don't tip the person serving you in any other establishment, so why are restaurants an exception?

I don't understand why it's so habitual in this country to tip people who are paid to deliver the things you've ordered to you.  I mean, the alternative that you go and collect it yourself?  Do you tip the postman, or the Hermes/FedEx/DHL/Yodel/DPD person?

Tipping in places like the US is habitual because of the lack of minimum wage laws in most states, which is fair enough to an extent, but it should not be required in the UK.

And frankly, most employers cream some of the top with tips anyway, the idea that it goes exclusively to servers is fantasy land.

The majority of people are paid more than minimum wage.  Why shouldn't they be?

Tipping is not required in the UK, but people in waiting jobs do the jobs because they pay that bit more, because of tipping.  If people stop tipping their wages will go down.  Therefore one assumes the restaurants will have to pay them a bit more, or they will get better paying jobs, just like with any job.  If restaurants have to pay them more to retain them, they will have to raise their prices.

If employers retain the tips, then if people stop tipping their profit margins will decrease and they will raise their prices.

I am all in favour of people stopping tipping, but don't kid yourself that if this happens everyone will be better off.  The businesses will recoup the tip income by raising base prices;  however, this will be split evenly across everyone who dines there, rather than being unfairly loaded onto those who do tip.  This would be a good thing, but those who currently don't tip will end up paying more.

Ath_Wat

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges. Of course if someone is willing to tip me for doing my job then I may rethink.

Are you on minimum wage?

comeandgo

F1shyFingers said:

Ath_Wat said:

The_Unready said:

Ath_Wat said:

Would you be happy if all restaurants ban tipping, increase prices by 10% and increase wages of staff accordingly?  Somewhere like Japan, where there is not tipping, it is because the tip is essentially included in the price.  In the USA, where tipping is expected, menu prices are much cheaper because they don't have to cover waiting staff wages.

Yes, I'd be happy with that because it would allow me to make like-for-like comparisons of restaurants based on price, for example, without me having to try and factor in unknown costs related to mandatory or optional tips, service charges and the like.

I'd be happy with that as well; just wondering whether the OP would, or whether what they really want is just cheaper meals.  because in that case there are better things to make reductions on than the wages of poorly paid staff.

We have a minimum wage law in the UK, so why do they need to be paid extra?

You don't tip the person serving you in any other establishment, so why are restaurants an exception?

I don't understand why it's so habitual in this country to tip people who are paid to deliver the things you've ordered to you.  I mean, the alternative that you go and collect it yourself?  Do you tip the postman, or the Hermes/FedEx/DHL/Yodel/DPD person?

Actually I do tip our postman, Hermes driver, bin men, hairdresser, nail technician, cafe, taxi, I think that’s the full list.  It’s something my husband brought with him and something I still do.

Ath_Wat

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges. Of course if someone is willing to tip me for doing my job then I may rethink.

Are you on minimum wage?

No, why do you ask?
Are you on minimum wage?

If you are worth more than minimum wage, why do you think nobody else is?

When you hire a plumber do you refuse to pay more than minimum wage?  Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?  

No, I am not on minimum wage.  That's why I tip people who earn a lot less than me and work in an industry where tips are regarded as standard.  I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

NBLondon

Ath_Wat said:

Would you be happy if all restaurants ban tipping, increase prices by 10% and increase wages of staff accordingly?  Somewhere like Japan, where there is not tipping, it is because the tip is essentially included in the price. 

Yes.  That's an honest approach where the price you pay is for a combination of the food, the convenience of having it brought to you and the ambience (which can include the friendliness of the person serving).  Then you can choose to add a gratuity - to reflect service over and above the expected competent level.

The tipping culture in Japan is not just because the service is included in the price but because the person providing the service would be insulted if you just pulled a note out of your pocket for them.

As you say - in the US the tip is expected because it forms an intrinsic part of the wages of the wait staff.  So when I'm there - I abide by the local rules even though I disagree with that approach.  But the service has to be acceptably competent in the first place.

IvanOpinion

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges. Of course if someone is willing to tip me for doing my job then I may rethink.

Are you on minimum wage?

No, why do you ask?
Are you on minimum wage?

If you are worth more than minimum wage, why do you think nobody else is?

You are going to need to remind me where I suggested that.

When you hire a plumber do you refuse to pay more than minimum wage?

A silly and irrelevant analogy.

Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?

Again, you will have to remind me where I suggested this.

No, I am not on minimum wage.  That's why I tip people who earn a lot less than me and work in an industry where tips are regarded as standard.  I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

If you feel the need to splash your cash to make yourself look better then that is your decision. Contrary to some made up 'standard', there is no moral or legal obligation to tip in the UK and nobody should be bullied or emotionally blackmailed into thinking there is.

Gavin83

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges. Of course if someone is willing to tip me for doing my job then I may rethink.

Are you on minimum wage?

No, why do you ask?
Are you on minimum wage?

If you are worth more than minimum wage, why do you think nobody else is?

When you hire a plumber do you refuse to pay more than minimum wage?  Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?  

No, I am not on minimum wage.  That's why I tip people who earn a lot less than me and work in an industry where tips are regarded as standard.  I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

This is a bit of a weird argument and clearly isn’t what they’re saying. Some jobs are worth minimum wage, some are worth more. Some probably aren’t worth minimum wage in all honesty but we are where we are. The salary for a job is essentially defined by supply and demand. It’s not really for an individual to top up someone’s salary.

I earn a good salary now but I have earned minimum wage in the past and it was considerably less than it is now. I never received tips nor expected them.

Waiting in restaurants seems to be the only industry/job where tipping is routinely expected. I’m not really sure what makes it so special.

Personally I’d prefer tipping was abolished. If that leads to an increase in prices so be it, at least it’s transparent. Saying this I’m not really sure why working as waiting staff requires more than minimum wage anyway.

And in answer to your question, no, I wouldn’t pay a plumber minimum wage. It’s a skilled job with far more demand than supply. Plus most are self employed. If you were only offering minimum wage you’d struggle to find anyone.

Thrugelmir

Tips are shared with behind the scenes staff as well. Your meal doesn't come out of a packet before being microwaved , then served to you. Good waiting staff do add to the experience making eating out something memorable. Trouble is eating out is now commoditised in the main very average. You are better off cooking at home. Then having an occasional treat. 

Ath_Wat

Gavin83 said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges. Of course if someone is willing to tip me for doing my job then I may rethink.

Are you on minimum wage?

No, why do you ask?
Are you on minimum wage?

If you are worth more than minimum wage, why do you think nobody else is?

When you hire a plumber do you refuse to pay more than minimum wage?  Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?  

No, I am not on minimum wage.  That's why I tip people who earn a lot less than me and work in an industry where tips are regarded as standard.  I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

This is a bit of a weird argument and clearly isn’t what they’re saying. Some jobs are worth minimum wage, some are worth more. Some probably aren’t worth minimum wage in all honesty but we are where we are. The salary for a job is essentially defined by supply and demand. It’s not really for an individual to top up someone’s salary.

I earn a good salary now but I have earned minimum wage in the past and it was considerably less than it is now. I never received tips nor expected them.

Waiting in restaurants seems to be the only industry/job where tipping is routinely expected. I’m not really sure what makes it so special.

Personally I’d prefer tipping was abolished. If that leads to an increase in prices so be it, at least it’s transparent. Saying this I’m not really sure why working as waiting staff requires more than minimum wage anyway.

And in answer to your question, no, I wouldn’t pay a plumber minimum wage. It’s a skilled job with far more demand than supply. Plus most are self employed. If you were only offering minimum wage you’d struggle to find anyone.

What makes it special is simply the fact that that's the way it traditionally works. If you take a job in a restaurant, you get your wages plus tips.   I too would be happy to see it changed, but if it is changes, restaurants will charge more if the staff are to be paid the same.  That's just inescapable.

Waiting staff get paid more than minimum wage as well, just like plumbers.  They get paid minimum wage plus tips.  If you only offered minimum wage you'd probably struggle to find anyone.

Ath_Wat

IvanOpinion said:

Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?

Again, you will have to remind me where I suggested this.

That would be here

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges.

I'll ignore the ridiculous comments about "splash your cash to make yourself look better".