Is it time for restaurant tips to stop being added to bills ?

hangryconsumer

Ath_Wat said:

I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

Whoa whoa hold your horses here. You're not screwing the little guy over, it's the capitalist system that is. We're all just pawns, taxpaying slaves. The real winners are the rich people milking the poor for their labour value. I don't earn minimum wage but I still feel like a tax paying slave for the CEO of my company earning multiple times what I do.

Liverpool_Anne

I am not sure if this is still the case but when I did bar work I was taxed extra for assumed tips even if I didn't get any. I personally always tip except if the service has been terrible but I will not pay a service charge as there is no guarantee that goes to the staff rather than the owner.

IvanOpinion

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?

Again, you will have to remind me where I suggested this.

That would be here

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges.

I'll ignore the ridiculous comments about "splash your cash to make yourself look better".  

So I didn't suggest anything like what you claim and you just made something silly up. You also failed to address your other equally silly made up comment.

Maybe if you could show me the legislation that says tips are required then you could convince me rather than relying on words like 'tradition' and 'standard' which is nothing more than ridiculous attempt at emotional blackmail. 

This is a money saving site not one for trying to bully others into paying something they are not legally or morally obliged to.

Ath_Wat

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?

Again, you will have to remind me where I suggested this.

That would be here

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges.

I'll ignore the ridiculous comments about "splash your cash to make yourself look better".  

So I didn't suggest anything like what you claim and you just made something silly up. You also failed to address your other equally silly made up comment.

Maybe if you could show me the legislation that says tips are required then you could convince me rather than relying on words like 'tradition' and 'standard' which is nothing more than ridiculous attempt at emotional blackmail. 

This is a money saving site not one for trying to bully others into paying something they are not legally or morally obliged to.

No, you said exactly that.  

Nobody is trying to force you to do anything.  We know a lot of people don't tip.  It's your prerogative to get away with paying as little as you can for anything, at whoever's expense.  You can call that "money saving" if you like.

Ath_Wat

hangryconsumer said:

Ath_Wat said:

I don't like tipping as a concept, but where it exists, if I don't tip I'm just screwing the little guy over.

Whoa whoa hold your horses here. You're not screwing the little guy over, it's the capitalist system that is. We're all just pawns, taxpaying slaves. The real winners are the rich people milking the poor for their labour value. I don't earn minimum wage but I still feel like a tax paying slave for the CEO of my company earning multiple times what I do.

Yes, the system does that.

But by taking advantage of this one loophole in the system that hurts nobody but the little guy right at the bottom of it, what do you think you are achieving?

As someone doing better than the majority under the broken system, why refuse to spread your fortune further?

Ath_Wat

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

Is it just waiting staff you think don't deserve anything more than the bare minimum?

Again, you will have to remind me where I suggested this.

That would be here

IvanOpinion said:

I stopped tipping the day they introduced the minimum wage. That is what many in the service industry asked for and they got it, so why is there a need to 'double-down' on service charges.

I'll ignore the ridiculous comments about "splash your cash to make yourself look better".  

So I didn't suggest anything like what you claim and you just made something silly up. You also failed to address your other equally silly made up comment.

Maybe if you could show me the legislation that says tips are required then you could convince me rather than relying on words like 'tradition' and 'standard' which is nothing more than ridiculous attempt at emotional blackmail. 

This is a money saving site not one for trying to bully others into paying something they are not legally or morally obliged to.

No, you said exactly that.  

Nobody is trying to force you to do anything.  We know a lot of people don't tip.  It's your prerogative to get away with paying as little as you can for anything, at whoever's expense.  You can call that "money saving" if you like.

I looked back and I definitely didn't say the comments that you are trying to attribute to me. I assume your use of 'exactly' is a bit like the young'uns use of 'literally' these days.

So we are 100% aligned that there is no moral or legal obligation to tip so why the continued use of 'emotional blackmail' in your comments?

Years ago those in the service industry said they would much rather their pay be upped to the minimum wage rather than having to rely on tips - they asked for it - they got it. At the time, I remember posting, on this site, that they would probably still expect tips on top of this rise and there will be those that still believe they need to pay them.

I can just imagine a call centre worker on minimum wage going into a restaurant and falling for the spin, or feeling they are being bullied into leaving a tip. Yet I have never seen serving staff leaving a tip for call centre workers. The two jobs are comparable in pay scales and delivering a personal service.

I haven't criticised those that want to tip (I might think they are a bit gullible falling for old outdated traditions, or maybe they just like to show off in front of their mates, or 101 other reasons), so please stop trying to infer that those that do not tip are, in any way, wrong - they aren't, such inference is bad advice.

In some countries it is actually considered rude and insulting to tip.

Then, when you are in those countries, don't.  In this country is it expected that people do tip, and waiting staff are paid accordingly.  The fact that they get minimum wage is neither here nor there, however often you repeat it.    Plenty of people are paid more than minimum wage, and charge you fees for services that mean they can be so paid, but it's only with waiting staff, because it's optional, that you think it's some sort of an imposition on you.

I agree that it should be done away with and they should just increase the price of the meal, so people with your mindset will be legally obliged to pay for the service they are getting.  

The idea that you think everyone tipping is "showing off" is just incredible.  

IvanOpinion

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

I looked back and I definitely didn't say the comments that you are trying to attribute to me. I assume your use of 'exactly' is a bit like the young'uns use of 'literally' these days.

So we are 100% aligned that there is no moral or legal obligation to tip so why the continued use of 'emotional blackmail' in your comments?

Years ago those in the service industry said they would much rather their pay be upped to the minimum wage rather than having to rely on tips - they asked for it - they got it. At the time, I remember posting, on this site, that they would probably still expect tips on top of this rise and there will be those that still believe they need to pay them.

I can just imagine a call centre worker on minimum wage going into a restaurant and falling for the spin, or feeling they are being bullied into leaving a tip. Yet I have never seen serving staff leaving a tip for call centre workers. The two jobs are comparable in pay scales and delivering a personal service.

I haven't criticised those that want to tip (I might think they are a bit gullible falling for old outdated traditions, or maybe they just like to show off in front of their mates, or 101 other reasons), so please stop trying to infer that those that do not tip are, in any way, wrong - they aren't, such inference is bad advice.

In some countries it is actually considered rude and insulting to tip.

Then, when you are in those countries, don't.  In this country is it expected that people do tip, and waiting staff are paid accordingly.  The fact that they get minimum wage is neither here nor there, however often you repeat it.    Plenty of people are paid more than minimum wage, and charge you fees for services that mean they can be so paid, but it's only with waiting staff, because it's optional, that you think it's some sort of an imposition on you.

I agree that it should be done away with and they should just increase the price of the meal, so people with your mindset will be legally obliged to pay for the service they are getting.  

Come on seriously, 'they get paid accordingly', somewhat insulting to wait staff - 

We have already agreed there is no legal or moral obligation in this country to tip. All you seem to be relying on is some irrelevant emotional blackmail - words like 'tradition', 'standard' and now 'expected'. Maybe I should tell people I expect tips for doing the job I am paid to do, con them into believing it is a tradition dating back to 1812 (a good year for overtures, I am led to believe) and then those that like to be seen splashing the cash will splash some in my direction.

How can something that someone else makes up and doesn't affect me be an 'imposition'? You seem to be desperately trying to turn it into one. I simply said that since serving staff were given what they asked for I see no need for tips, which you seem to be taking offence at. I am happy if it makes you feel better to tip, but stop trying to bully others into doing something that we have already agreed is not an obligation.

Ath_Wat said:
The idea that you think everyone tipping is "showing off" is just incredible.  

Remind me again where I equated anything to 'everyone tipping'.
I ask again, please stop making things up and attributing them to me.

Money_Grabber13579

The part that confuses me is why it is expected to tip waiting staff on minimium wage but not other workers on minimum wage. Waiting staff clearly do a valuable job but in my view, not any more valuable than the supermarket checkout assistant, factory worker etc

Ath_Wat

IvanOpinion said:

Ath_Wat said:

IvanOpinion said:

I looked back and I definitely didn't say the comments that you are trying to attribute to me. I assume your use of 'exactly' is a bit like the young'uns use of 'literally' these days.

So we are 100% aligned that there is no moral or legal obligation to tip so why the continued use of 'emotional blackmail' in your comments?

Years ago those in the service industry said they would much rather their pay be upped to the minimum wage rather than having to rely on tips - they asked for it - they got it. At the time, I remember posting, on this site, that they would probably still expect tips on top of this rise and there will be those that still believe they need to pay them.

I can just imagine a call centre worker on minimum wage going into a restaurant and falling for the spin, or feeling they are being bullied into leaving a tip. Yet I have never seen serving staff leaving a tip for call centre workers. The two jobs are comparable in pay scales and delivering a personal service.

I haven't criticised those that want to tip (I might think they are a bit gullible falling for old outdated traditions, or maybe they just like to show off in front of their mates, or 101 other reasons), so please stop trying to infer that those that do not tip are, in any way, wrong - they aren't, such inference is bad advice.

In some countries it is actually considered rude and insulting to tip.

Then, when you are in those countries, don't.  In this country is it expected that people do tip, and waiting staff are paid accordingly.  The fact that they get minimum wage is neither here nor there, however often you repeat it.    Plenty of people are paid more than minimum wage, and charge you fees for services that mean they can be so paid, but it's only with waiting staff, because it's optional, that you think it's some sort of an imposition on you.

I agree that it should be done away with and they should just increase the price of the meal, so people with your mindset will be legally obliged to pay for the service they are getting.  

Come on seriously, 'they get paid accordingly', somewhat insulting to wait staff - 

We have already agreed there is no legal or moral obligation in this country to tip. All you seem to be relying on is some irrelevant emotional blackmail - words like 'tradition', 'standard' and now 'expected'. Maybe I should tell people I expect tips for doing the job I am paid to do, con them into believing it is a tradition dating back to 1812 (a good year for overtures, I am led to believe) and then those that like to be seen splashing the cash will splash some in my direction.

How can something that someone else makes up and doesn't affect me be an 'imposition'? You seem to be desperately trying to turn it into one. I simply said that since serving staff were given what they asked for I see no need for tips, which you seem to be taking offence at. I am happy if it makes you feel better to tip, but stop trying to bully others into doing something that we have already agreed is not an obligation.

Ath_Wat said:
The idea that you think everyone tipping is "showing off" is just incredible.  

Remind me again where I equated anything to 'everyone tipping'.
I ask again, please stop making things up and attributing them to me.

No we haven't at all.  Legal, yes,.  That's what you rely on.  It's legal not to, so you are not going to.

If it was bundled into the price, you'd pay it without comment.  However, as it is listed as an optional extra, you are never going to pay it.  That's your position, and it's ludicrous.

IvanOpinion

Ath_Wat said:
No we haven't at all.  Legal, yes,.  That's what you rely on.  It's legal not to, so you are not going to.

If it was bundled into the price, you'd pay it without comment.  However, as it is listed as an optional extra, you are never going to pay it.  That's your position, and it's ludicrous.

Well at least you are half way there. Maybe you can provide a single shred of evidence that I am morally obligated to pay a tip - emotional blackmail arguments are irrelevant. I trust you tip everybody that you decide does not earn enough - maybe we could discuss your criteria on how you determine who is paid enough and who is not?

Your 'bundled into the price' comment is the most ridiculous yet - IT ALREADY IS and I happily pay it without issue (assuming the food and service are good), they just get some gullible people to pay extra. Maybe I just eat in better places that already treat and pay their staff well - which would beg the question, why would anybody with any moral values choose to enter any place where they believe the staff are being mistreated? I know I wouldn't.