MSE Parking Ticket Appeals Guide feedback

MSE_JC

Hi all,

We noticed that a recent thread we started about MoneySavingExpert's Parking Ticket Appeals Guide prompted a response from a number of users.

Thank you for all the feedback. MSE's guides are based on detailed journalistic research and analysis rather than tailored advice aimed at individuals. These guides are constantly updated by our expert staff with new information that people may find relevant or helpful. However, we always welcome any insight from knowledgeable Forumites who may be able to point out something we're unaware of or if there's a way to potentially make any of our guides even more useful for consumers. In the meantime, we've removed the thread about the guide.

While we'll certainly take your comments on board, we'd also just like to remind you that we ask our users to be respectful, polite, friendly and mindful of the impact of your posts to other community members, Board Guides and MSE staff.

Thanks again!

Fruitcake

Thank you. The "official" MSE guide to private parking appeals was awful, and has been for years. It is pointless trying to explain why it was awful because so much of it was wrong, or out of date, and some of the advice would actually cost people money which is the exact opposite of what we try to do here on the parking forum.


When providing information about how to deal with an unfair private parking charge all that is needed from MSE is to provide a link to this forum. The regulars here know what they are talking about, and Coupon-mad actually had a direct input to the new government Private Parking Code of Practice.
There really is no need for MSE board guides to spend time and effort on this when the regulars here will do it for them, and meaning no offence, will do a better job of doing it.

The "official" guide to fighting unfair parking charges should be deleted, and replaced with a link to this forum.

Coupon-mad

There will certainly be changes needed for MSE's private PCN appeals advice this year and into 2023 so it's good that this thread is a sticky thread that we can come back to, as and when PPCs start to follow the new Code and Appeals Charter.

The latter will be key to a lot of appeals because many cases will be genuinely easy to get cancelled.  This is because lots of cases fall within the Appeals Charter, if it is properly applied.

Did MSE know that the IAS (the IPC's version of an 'independent' appeals service) only allowed 4% of appeals heard in the last year they reported in their Annual Report, and the Lead Adjudicator pretty much appeared to bury that statistic, just as he had the previous 2 years when it was 5% allowed and 6% allowed.  They like to say it's a good thing that 20% are dropped by PPCs to save themselves the IAS fee, and they are all astonishingly for 'mitigation' (cases on here show that's not true and what actually happens is that IPC firms are seen to refuse almost all appeals, then drop some of the odd 1% of cases that go to IAS).

Many are cases that should have seen first appeals accepted but sadly only 1% of people try second stage appeal.  MSE can help change that next year, whenever the new Appeals Service comes in.  Not yet (at least don't expect to win cases yet)!  But everyone should be encouraged to use it for unfair PCNS...which in our experience are pretty much all of them, at the time of writing this.

Did MSE Towers know that both IAS and the BPA's version, POPLA, say they apply the applicable laws of the land but they don't apply the Equality Act 2010?  Absolutely shocking - and I am not talking about Blue Badge bays.

For example, a disabled person is allowed a reasonable adjustment of more time, by law.  Not just a longer consideration or grace period,; they should be entitled to a way to claim actual extended free parking time in a time-limited car park, or more time for their money (tariff) if more time is needed as a result of their condition. 

Anyway, that is the sort of thing that will change with the new Code of Practice because the Equality Act 2010 and the EHRC Code of Practice for Service Providers are both stated at the top in a list of applicable laws for parking firms. The good old Consumer Rights Act 2015 is also on the list, bringing in the legal test of fairness of consumer contracts. including prominence and transparency not just of terms, but of 'consumer notices' as well.

That includes signs and also 'PCNs' that must be brought to the attention of the driver.

Plenty of changes afoot for us to discuss here, as and when.  It would be great to see the MSE Guide updated swiftly as implementation of the Code is brought in, and to alert people to the Appeals Charter, not that it is/will be the only grounds for appeal, by any interpretation.

Right now, the easiest way to get a private PCN cancelled is (as it says in the NEWBIES thread) 'PLAN A' which is 'complain to the landowner/retailer.'  That won't change and in most cases is well worth people trying first, and even years later when faced with a court claim threat.  Works as it should do with supermarkets and retail parks in particular, because they care about customer service.

Second easiest way (BPA member firm cases) is where the PPC doesn't bother with the POFA and all that is needed is a registered keeper appeal, not saying who was driving.  Case won, 100%.  Plenty of PPCs still don't bother to use the POFA so it's well worth comparing the PCN with Schedule 4 (paragraph 8 or 9).

We hope to see some early evidence of change and will be happy to update this thread, so that MSE Towers are aware and can adapt the Appeals Guide accordingly.  Soon you will need to refer to PCNs as NPCs -possibly 'NoPCs' (= Notice of Parking Charge) because PPCs are no longer going to be able to use the Council 'PCN' acronym in future.

The only urgent change needed right now to the Appeals Guide is that, when I looked at it last month I saw that it was much improved but still had an optional paragraph somewhere, for appellants to try to argue that the parking charge as 'not a genuine pre-estimate of loss'.  That argument died in 2015 in the Supreme Court case of ParkingEye v Beavis and should never be tried in any case.

Coupon-mad

@MSE_JC this is what people are copying that is 7 years out of date:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79053275/#Comment_79053275

Could someone please remove the appeal choice that talks about 'no loss/ no GPEOL' because that was killed off by the Supreme Court in 2015 in ParkingEye v Beavis.

Coupon-mad

It has happened again:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6342845/parking-eye-fine-antelope-park-southampton

@MSE_JC the Guide is a problem all the time it still tells people to talk about no genuine pre-estimate of loss.  Needs urgently removing.

Coupon-mad

@MSE_JC, please could the Forum Team kindly check how newbies are still finding something telling them to allege 'No genuine pre-estimate of loss' (an argument completely killed off in parking cases in 2015, by the Suoreme court).

This keeps happening:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6353468/pcn-nw-limited-notice-to-keeper-incorrect-signage-forbidding#latest

For all the MSEers this parking forum rescues there will be ten times more who read that (presumably it's still somewhere in your guide?) and think 'no loss' is an appeal argument still.

Most readers will never come to this forum after reading what they trust to be correct, in an MSE Article, and their appeals are doomed to fail.

It is not a grey area, it's trite law and has been for seven years. The Guide needs to be correct and aligned with what we do here.

Or, can you reassure us that 'no loss' is not in the MSE guide or any parking ticket articles any more, and no-one can work out where people are finding that old chestnut?  We all want to help newbies appeal meaningfully, but wherever they are finding this it's still causing a problem and will cost people money.

Epideme

It's the free template under 2 "The no nonsense approach" on https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets/, which is linked to this document https://images6.moneysavingexpert.com/images/documents/no-nonsense (17).docx

howcan

My wife received a Parking Charge Notice- Notice to Keeper. The car was a hire car and the notice was received from the hire company who will provide her details to the parking company..
We believe that the notice is unfair. 
We are a little confused about which template to use as an appeal, would appreciate any advice.
The 14 days period is almost up.
When the hire company informs the parking company, will that trigger another PCN directly addressed to us?

Coupon-mad

howcan said:

My wife received a Parking Charge Notice- Notice to Keeper. The car was a hire car and the notice was received from the hire company who will provide her details to the parking company..
We believe that the notice is unfair. 
We are a little confused about which template to use as an appeal, would appreciate any advice.
The 14 days period is almost up.
When the hire company informs the parking company, will that trigger another PCN directly addressed to us?

Welcome.

This is the wrong place to post because the MoneySavingExpert's Parking Ticket Appeals Guide discussed in it is categorically out of date, with ill-advised arguments that should NEVER be used.

See above for where we've highlighted to @MSE_JC a couple of examples of the damage (and potential financial loss) the MSE 'parking appeals guide' is still causing to consumers.

We hope the Forum Team liaise with us to put it right, as we have offered more than once because the approach in it is still misconceived in places. It's better than it was but still not right.

Stay on the forum instead and read the other Announcement called 'NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST'.

My signature explains where it is.

The correct appeal - which is only secondary, PLAN B - is there, along with information about PLAN A - the tactic to try first, to kill off any private PCN.

If you have questions after that we are happy to help, but please start a new discussion thread. On page one where my signature signposts you to.

Coupon-mad

A request - hope MSE see this as being as important as we do:

As it is vitally important that all posters see when the final private parking Public Consultation opens, can we put it on a sticky please?

For those unaware, here's where we are at:

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-law/private-parking-code-of-practice-set-to-be-withdrawn-what-does-it-mean-for/

"the Private Parking Code of Practice is now temporarily withdrawn pending review of the levels of private parking charges and additional fees."

The parking industry blocked the new Code of Practice and the 2 most fundamental issues (lower parking levels and the ban on false 'debt recovery' enhancement fees) now hinge upon motorists responding to a final Consultation that the PPCs will try to dominate again.

When the Public Consultation goes 'live' this Summer we need MSE posters to know, and respond in high numbers.

Trying to avoid being accused of spamming but we need the message to be seen and have a clear way to signpost people, because new posters come here in a panic and often don't see the Announcements .

We need somewhere we can all signpost people to, for the mere month it is likely to be open, without being held to be spamming by signposting.

No good hiding it in the NEWBIES or Template Defence stickies as they are specific and already chock full of info for new posters to digest...

...but maybe here?

Can one of us regulars reply here with details all about the Public Consultation, and link it when it comes out? 

We could all then encourage posters to look here, when we help people on individual threads, and would be reassured that we won't get our posts taken down for repetition?

Would that be OK?

@MSE_James
@MSE_Laura_F
@MSE_Martin
@MSE_James
@MSE_ForumTeam2
@MSE_ForumTeam1

Hope it's OK to tag you all just this once. 

Also...can MSE journalists bookmark this thread (please) and pick it up from here too, and spread the word when the Public Consultation is open this time, please? It's vital to all motorists.

It would be fantastic if the MSE weekly email could tell all recipients how important it is that they respond to the final call for evidence if they want to change the rotten parking industry for good.

Many thanks if that's possible.

We could start telling new posters to bookmark this sticky thread now and set up email alerts.  We miss people otherwise because this board is so transient.

MSE_James

Hi @Coupon-mad just confirming we've seen the message above and will be on the alert for the start of the consultation, and will make sure our news colleagues are aware of it when it happens as well.