Help with cat in leasehold flat - Director with passive/aggressive behaviour

NeilCr

Seashell517 said:

OP - I understand that being told you can't have the cat and then keeping it goes against most people's wanting 'to do the right thing'. But in this case, I would honestly just wait and see if anything further happens. I can't see the directors wanting to spend money on getting your cat removed when it's indoor and therefore not directly effecting anybody else living in the block. (You would need to declare that you've breached the lease when selling, but I can't see that many people would be put off buying it because you kept a cat when the director's said no...)

The directors might well take the view that they may be able to recover their costs from OP

First step we'd take if we were thinking of going that way would be to seek legal advice on our chances of success and financial implications. We wouldn't in this case as we are animal friendly but, given the views attributed to the "difficult" director, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they investigated taking this further

As a number of us have said - talking to the other directors in a friendly and constructive way does seem to be the next best move. 

Tokmon

Luisaandhercat said:

I am as shocked about the whole leasehold system as you'd be to know that other countries have much, much laxer rules and you just own outright and have a "comunidad de propietarios" that is self-managed.

E.g. there are many posts on Google confirming there's not a leasehold system like here in Spain (where I owned an apartment; and most of my friends do; they all have pets and are as shocked as I am).

As I was shocked about my ignorance on this matter in England, I have chatted about this with friends in other countries who know about property, e.g. lawyers; RSA, etc. and leasehold is not a thing. I have recently read somewhere that even in Scotland it doesn't exist, is that correct?

A quick google search shows that the "Estatutos de la Comunidad" can prohibit people from having pets in communal buildings in Spain so just because "leasehold" is not a thing doesn't mean the rules are much different:
https://www.idealista.com/en/news/legal-advice-spain/2019/02/27/6414-legal-guide-living-pets-spain

You need to take this as a lesson to read every piece of paperwork in detail when your spending large sums of money, especially when you unsure of the process.

I can't believe people are so lax when it comes to thing like house buying when it's usually the single most expensive thing people will buy.

es5595

Since you didn't read the lease, does it also so happen there could have been a separate information notice on a blanket ban on pet-keeping? If not, Durley-Chine is probably less relevant. 

Secondly, you mention a clause allowing inspections. What exactly does that say? Obviously given Covid-19 right now its unenforceable, but in the future, I assume they have to be pre-booked? Simply load the cat into its carrier and deposit with a friend/in the car for the duration of the visit. Explicitly point out all the cat items and explain how heart-broken you were the cat had to go so you still keep the place ready for her return. Possibly also get some cat-sized, similarly coloured cuddly toys to poke into the windows periodically. 

See the director filming outside? Or taking any more than a passing glance? Straight onto the police for harassment. People like these need it stuck to them.

I've never comprehended how people can move into a flat/apartment and have a baby; no permission needed. Yet a indoor cat requires fees and permission. It's utterly bizarre. 

princeofpounds

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Seashell517 said:

OP - I understand that being told you can't have the cat and then keeping it goes against most people's wanting 'to do the right thing'. But in this case, I would honestly just wait and see if anything further happens. I can't see the directors wanting to spend money on getting your cat removed when it's indoor and therefore not directly effecting anybody else living in the block. (You would need to declare that you've breached the lease when selling, but I can't see that many people would be put off buying it because you kept a cat when the director's said no...)

Your confidence is admirable, however the OP needs to make damn sure there isn't a forfeiture clause/power of re-entry present in her lease before digging her heels in.  

Exceptionally unlikely without a court process which you can see coming from a mile off. And no court is going to order forfeiture of the lease without first ordering removal of the animal, it would be entirely disproportionate.

ratechaser

Alan2020 said:

AdrianC said:

Alan's posts are not necessarily "false", they are simply his opinion. They are one not shared by the vast majority of the population.

I rather suspect (hope, to prevent allegations of hypocrisy being levelled) that he is also a vegan - again, something not shared by the vast majority of the population.

Absolutely AdrianC, you hear of animals caged in some countries and without their skin due to the smallness of their cage, some cannot stand straight.  For a civilised person, our moral standards improve as we get enlightened.
In many parts of the world, dogs, cats, elephants are given a thorough beating.  Children as well.  Donkeys are given a good beating till they die.  Now I am not going to say these people are cruel, their understanding of suffering is limited due to poor education.
In the UK a lot of people have pets in appalling conditions, now just because it is legal, doesn't mean its morally OK.  All I am pointing out is that, I personally will not want to have a pet in a small space as its cruel.  However, if I lived on a farm and had the space for a dog, I don't think that would be bad for the dog/cat living there.
As a society we create a lot of problems for poor creatures, look at people buying cats and dogs during lockdown and abandoning them.  These are living beings.  In the next 20 to 50 years I am 100% sure laws will ban anyone owning a pet.  People used to have pet Lions and elephants, do you think in the current world this would be acceptable - no.  Young people are already recogonising how badly we  treat animals.  We as an educated society should pool money to have more conservation of our nature and stop its ruin by having needless pets - if people didn't buy pets you want have to put down pets.

I have very little sympathy for people who have pets in apartments - utterly selfish cretins.  I can understand someone who needs it for medical purposes, and the good news is scientist are developing systems to help the blind see via artificial intelligence, I was involved in such a project, absolutely fascinating. 

It depends on the pet and the space - not really sure how prescriptive you can really be in your quest against animal cruelty. Bear in mind that an 'apartment' can come in many shapes and sizes. My first and only one was 3 beds and split level, if I had even considered a house cat breed back then, I wouldn't have been at all concerned about the space aspect.

On to today, and my two raggie boys have very little interest in going outside, preferring to snuggle up with me (as one is right now), play with each other, or rip my furniture to shreds. They have the permanent run of a decent sized property and certainly don't exhibit any signs of stress, although fair to say they aren't exactly the most intelligent breed... 

oniongirl

ratechaser said:

Alan2020 said:

AdrianC said:

Alan's posts are not necessarily "false", they are simply his opinion. They are one not shared by the vast majority of the population.

I rather suspect (hope, to prevent allegations of hypocrisy being levelled) that he is also a vegan - again, something not shared by the vast majority of the population.

Absolutely AdrianC, you hear of animals caged in some countries and without their skin due to the smallness of their cage, some cannot stand straight.  For a civilised person, our moral standards improve as we get enlightened.
In many parts of the world, dogs, cats, elephants are given a thorough beating.  Children as well.  Donkeys are given a good beating till they die.  Now I am not going to say these people are cruel, their understanding of suffering is limited due to poor education.
In the UK a lot of people have pets in appalling conditions, now just because it is legal, doesn't mean its morally OK.  All I am pointing out is that, I personally will not want to have a pet in a small space as its cruel.  However, if I lived on a farm and had the space for a dog, I don't think that would be bad for the dog/cat living there.
As a society we create a lot of problems for poor creatures, look at people buying cats and dogs during lockdown and abandoning them.  These are living beings.  In the next 20 to 50 years I am 100% sure laws will ban anyone owning a pet.  People used to have pet Lions and elephants, do you think in the current world this would be acceptable - no.  Young people are already recogonising how badly we  treat animals.  We as an educated society should pool money to have more conservation of our nature and stop its ruin by having needless pets - if people didn't buy pets you want have to put down pets.

I have very little sympathy for people who have pets in apartments - utterly selfish cretins.  I can understand someone who needs it for medical purposes, and the good news is scientist are developing systems to help the blind see via artificial intelligence, I was involved in such a project, absolutely fascinating. 

It depends on the pet and the space - not really sure how prescriptive you can really be in your quest against animal cruelty. Bear in mind that an 'apartment' can come in many shapes and sizes. My first and only one was 3 beds and split level, if I had even considered a house cat breed back then, I wouldn't have been at all concerned about the space aspect.

On to today, and my two raggie boys have very little interest in going outside, preferring to snuggle up with me (as one is right now), play with each other, or rip my furniture to shreds. They have the permanent run of a decent sized property and certainly don't exhibit any signs of stress, although fair to say they aren't exactly the most intelligent breed... 

My husband and I were just joking about how our raggie would react if asked to hold his own out on the mean streets with the local cats. The local cats that can magically jump on to surfaces more than 1m off the ground. Occasionally he will find himself on a windowsill after a bout of zoomies, and then wail loudly to be helped down. And then will refuse to be put down til you carry him on a tour of the house to sniff all the places he's incapable of getting to (but that his moggie sister is easily able to access).

It would be animal cruelty to let him roam free, for sure. He'd try and make friends with a car tyre going 40 MPH.

Luisaandhercat

Alan2020 said:

I think Luisa has a number of points to note:
1. I suspect maybe people don’t like Johnny Foreigner breaking their laws (in the flat kingdom) and you mistook the politeness of the friendly person for sympathy.
2. You are assuming, no one else has an allergy etc and complained.
3. You are misreading the culture, most people will see your partner as a dramatic troublemaker. To give you a perspective, our child cannot take to school any peanut containing food to school due to other children’s allergies. Now we love peanuts and this is annoying due to having to change everything we cook. Imagine how the teachers will perceive a parent complaining how depressed they are without jumbo peanuts - people will say !!!!!!. Now imagine there was a person with an allergy next door, the directors can’t tell you due to GDPR, but will view you as selfish people making up a disease.
4. Have you had a look at who else lives in these apartments? You might find it’s better to sell up and move. We had this issue whilst living in Sweden, we lived in a very upmarket apartment complex and had constant problems, because we were foreign. Moved to a more mixed neighbourhood and things were better but Sweden isn’t a good place to live as a foreigner lol

Thanks for your comments.

1. The only person having a problem with us having the cat is this Director (regardless of the fact that we made a mistake). The others are nice people like everyone else we've found so far having lived for 9 years here (my partner lived for an additional 5 years here before moving to Spain and back, and she's quite the anglophile).

2. Nope. She's the only one complaining about the cat. In fact, if this was about being an exemplary Director, I think the rules should apply to all. The fact that there are dogs around and she hasn't reported them is really hypocritical.  When we asked another Director about the other dogs, he simply said: "the rule applies to all but some people don't follow the rules", e.g. no permit but not reported.

3. Interesting how different cultures have different perspectives...  Personally, the peanut example is too far fetch for me compared to having a pet that you love like a child. We definitely misread the leasehold! lol. As per my partner being perceived as a "selfish person making up a disease"...WOW...Really? So we have sent them the sick notes from the GP (including the ones for last year w/anxiety; the letters from the NHS that class my partner as an extremely vulnerable person, etc.) and they will think that? Then...they have a problem. You see...I have said this is a cultural thing too: my fiancee has spoken with her friends in North and South America; Spain; Australia, etc. over the past 2 weeks and everyone finds it shocking and really hard to believe. Now, this includes lawyers too and property managers, etc. A variety of friends; flat owners; pet owners. No one has encountered rules like this. I know that regardless of England being one of the only countries with a Leasehold system, other systems obviously have rules in place  (though no one has a clause about pets among all these friends; and neither did us when we lived in Spain, etc.). The difference is that as there is no leasehold, if you do something wrong you can e.g. pay a fine? I would love to be fined right now. Move on. Cat in the house that never ever anyone is going to get an allergy from as she's an indoor cat can live her life and sad Director can live hers...but no...a few people have said here that they can even forfeit the lease?? Take you to court?  For having a cat inside of your home? As I said before...for people who have never had the pleasure of living in a country where norms about pets are -fortunately for pet lovers- more flexible, I don't expect them to understand the cultural shock that this is for all the people we speak with.

4. Lovely people live in the other apartments; we have a friendly relationship and no problem at all with the others. The other Director who lives here is now probably trying to avoid us as he passively said he supported us having a cat but, as explained before, his wife is best friends with the Director that reported us.

In a nutshell, we never had problems with neighbours before, neither here or in other countries. We made a mistake, somewhere else it would be treated as a minor mistake. As I said, I'd happily pay a fine; do some community work around the estate! Whatever...but there is no middle ground here, it seems. We spent quite a lot of money renovating the apartment; moving out costs a lot of money; it shouldn't have to come up to that.

Luisaandhercat

lucypilates said:

davidmcn said:

I would have thought the likelihood of anybody bothering to go legal about an indoors cat to be pretty remote.

totally agree with this .... as hard as it might be, I'd just sit tight and wait to see how they escalate it (if at all!) ... they will have to feel very strongly about it to spend money to start legal proceedings and if I were a fellow leaseholder, I'd be a bit miffed at them spending MY money on something that proves to NOT be a nuisance .. your fellow leaseholders will likely forget that you have a cat and the Directors will be hard pushed to justify spending on legal advice for something that isn't actually a problem ...

I bought a flat about 15 years ago with a similar clause in the lease. When i mentioned it to my solicitor as i then had 2 cats, I was told that nearly all leases will have such a clause but rarely will they be a problem. He suggested that such a lease was put in 'just in case' there was an issue and it allowed the potential to get rid of any problems ... and he gave me 'permission' to go ahead with it and not worry about it. So I did, and there was no problem - i even put a cat flap in ..

So my advice, sit tight and see what happens. 

Good luck - and to those who suggest they'd just simply move rather than get rid of the cat .. I love my cats but in this instance, I'd rehome the cat before selling up ... it costs £1000s to move so you must be realistic!! 

That's lovely and I'm glad you got to keep beautiful cats:) Rules are there for  a reason and I totally understand we made a mistake by not reading the lease properly; but empathy, compassion, flexibility and true leadership are really good virtues to have. I can see some posts from some Directors here who seem to have that.

My other leaseholders already don't care we have a cat.

Thanks for the common sense too: we both have good jobs, fortunately and are doing well but everytime someone posts "just move out" I think: "wow...people are living their best lives, we are not living enough!" lol

For me, what would make sense is people thinking that I should pay a fine; pay extra to have the cat; find an amicable way to let someone have a cat inside that doesn't disturb anyone's peace.

Thank you for your comments.

Luisaandhercat

frogglet said:

Don't think Alan is an animal lover then.
I'd keep the cat and see what happens. As long as it isn't pooing in the woodland.

Thanks for your comments.

She only sees the woodland from our windows...and loves it that way.

Luisaandhercat

Jumblebumble said:

Alan2020 said:

wannabe_a_saver said:

I think your number 3 is a bit unfair.  There’s tons of medical evidence that dogs and cats are beneficial for mental health, none for peanuts! 

There isn’t any medical evidence from any credible source. Firstly having a pet is ethnically questionable, I highly doubt the animal has a free choice, it’s akin to animal slavery. Secondly, in the UK people aren’t into alternative mumbo jumbo. The only dogs I am aware of people actively supporting are guide dogs and these are viewed as working dogs.
Pets are from an ethical point of view, animals enslaved to please a selfish person who cannot make connections with normal humans due to the effort needed - could be laziness or some medical issues. People should be supporting animal sanctuaries and pay to protect the animals homes if they really are animal lovers

You talk nonsense as you cannot possibly know what reason I have for keeping a dog
Remarkably my dog has developed a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome and doesn't care what you think

I find it interesting that for being a Scientist Alan2020's argument includes so many generalizations and assumptions.

My fiancee and I are really sociable people and love pets; how those two could be mutually exclusive I don't know...

Also, I don't really admire the US system but the fact that they have an Emotional Support Animal law shows an understanding of what pets can do for people's mental health...missing over here.