Help with cat in leasehold flat - Director with passive/aggressive behaviour

Luisaandhercat

davidmcn said:

Yes, property laws are completely different in Scotland, and there's (almost) no such thing as leasehold tenure for residential property. But that doesn't mean there are no conditions attached to owning property, and flats (particularly modern ones) will typically come with a dozen pages of title conditions about what you can and can't do, how common repairs are managed, etc. Restrictions on owning pets aren't really a "leasehold" thing.

You haven't answered my earlier question about what advice you were given when you bought, but surely your solicitor told you something about how things worked?

Sorry, must have missed it among so many messages.

The solicitor found 12 irregularities that were dealt with, one by one, in the previous docs. The most important being that it said that the flat came with a parking space but in reality, there is not such parking space. So a formal change had to be made.

We do have a 25 m2 garage, so that's good. The garage is freehold.

Most of the time with emails was spent on this and the rest of the issues that were solved.

Then we got all the paperwork, inc. lease, etc. of course.

davidmcn

Luisaandhercat said:

davidmcn said:

Yes, property laws are completely different in Scotland, and there's (almost) no such thing as leasehold tenure for residential property. But that doesn't mean there are no conditions attached to owning property, and flats (particularly modern ones) will typically come with a dozen pages of title conditions about what you can and can't do, how common repairs are managed, etc. Restrictions on owning pets aren't really a "leasehold" thing.

You haven't answered my earlier question about what advice you were given when you bought, but surely your solicitor told you something about how things worked?

Then we got all the paperwork, inc. lease, etc. of course.

But didn't your solicitor advise you what the lease said? Or at least suggest that you read it yourself?

annetheman

I'm heartbroken for you, OP. My sister calls us "cat people" sad but my cat is my baby and I can understand how the potential fallout of the management co's decision can be devastating. I would be inconsolable. Some excellent advice on page 1 from @princeofpounds said it all perfectly. You really do need to appeal to the management company director's better nature, whatever you think of them...

I wish you the best of luck. Lesson learnt, as you say - read your lease, for many many reasons (just bought a flat myself and got permission before I completed, I can guarantee you I would not have gone through with it without it). 

Slithery

At the end of the day all of this discussion isn't going to help you in any way.
You have 2 options - either move or get rid of the cat. You need to decide which one you are going to do.

princeofpounds

Luisaandhercat said:

Hi, Thank you very much for your reply.

The reason why I think it does matter that the Director reported us having a cat is because if it's down to her...then it's an obvious "no" whatever we do. Whether it's about a cat -or anything else- how is that not biased if the person e.g. does not like you?
Yes, it may matter from a point of view of personal morality. The point is that does not matter one bit in terms of the legal dispute. It is a corporate process, not a judicial process, and there is no rule that she cannot be both complainant and decision-maker. The management company needs to say 'yes' or 'no'. The management company should have its own internal processes for deciding that, but in brief:
- you may get a direct decision by an agent or a staff member (if they have either).
- you may get a direct decision by a Director.
- Ultimate decision-making power rests with the Board of Directors as a collective entity, should they choose to exercise that power.
- Directors can be appointed and rejected by the shareholders at an AGM or EGM.

The Director who is supportive of us did not do it publicly on the WhatsApp group when this came up (though at least he clarified that "consent needed to be sought" as opposed to "no pet allows", but that was it). He then send a private message to me to say he had no problem with us having a cat. However, after that I sent him the reply denying consent and he just said: "you got to do what you got to do". That was all. Now, his wife is best friends with the Director who reported us and go for long walks each day, etc.
OK, so he is only passively supportive. 

The third Director we don't know. We know he has two dogs. We know by looking at the posts on the FB group that he usually agrees with the Director who reported us so I'd be inclined to think that they wouldn't want to disturb the peace for the newcomers.
OK, so if he owns two dogs and he is subject to the same terms as you (you can download his title) and you can evidence it, then that may be of use if you ever take this to a legal setting. It also means that it may be worth engaging him directly.

I am as shocked about the whole leasehold system as you'd be to know that other countries have much, much laxer rules and you just own outright and have a "comunidad de propietarios" that is self-managed.

E.g. there are many posts on Google confirming there's not a leasehold system like here in Spain (where I owned an apartment; and most of my friends do; they all have pets and are as shocked as I am).
And how is a Comunidad de propietarios actually that different to a share-of-freehold property? There will be communal rules. Members of the association will presumably vote on important issues. I should imagine that day-to-day executive power is delegated to a committee, an individual or an agent? Many share-of-freehold companies are companies limite by guarantee, which basically just mean an Association; I think that's a rough translation of Comunidad...

The rules against pets have nothing to do with it being a leasehold/freehold system. This is exactly what I mean by people overstating the issues with the leasehold/freehold system, assuming that problems arise from the legal structure, when they simply don't.

As I was shocked about my ignorance on this matter in England, I have chatted about this with friends in other countries who know about property, e.g. lawyers; RSA, etc. and leasehold is not a thing. I have recently read somewhere that even in Scotland it doesn't exist, is that correct?
Sort of correct. Leases do exist in Scotland, but they are not common and the legal theory behind them is somewhat different. I'm not an expert but IIRC most property in Scotland is technically a freehold. BUT (and it's a big but) in apartment complexes there is always a long legal document containing lots and lots of covenants that establish rights and obligations between the various flat owners. The end result is something not wildly different from share-of-freehold. The english started from leases and it moved towards something that more resembled freehold ownership. The scottish started from freehold ownership and moved towards something that more resembled a long lease. It's part of the fundamental nature of communal buildings that you need a communal legal relationship. Pet clauses can exist in either system, and probably in Spain too; it's largely cultural, not legal.

An English version of commonhold was created some years ago, which is more similar to the Scottish system. It has proved so popular and beneficial that a grand total of 20 buildings have adopted it. 

Believe it or not, I am just reading about this news: (I am not allowed to post link as I am new to the forum)

"Leasehold scandal: Millions of homeowners to be freed from ‘rip-off’ ground rents after landmark reforms".

I have now read many articles about the upcoming changes.

I know and respect that is the norm here, but I'd be lying if I'd say that it doesn't surprise me that such a system would make people so unhappy.
The media do a very bad job of reporting on leasehold and lease reform. But where there are issues with leasehold, it's largely around ground rent and lease renewals, not pet clauses. There have actually been many phases of leasehold reform over the decades, with each one granting more and more power to leaseholders, to the point now where lease extensions are now basically a token payment as long as you don't let the lease get below 80 years. Ground rents need a bit more sorting out but it's not a hidden charge, it's there in black and white when you buy the property.

There are of course ongoing complaints about service charges and communal management, like yours. But I don't know a system worldwide where there aren't grumbles about maintenance not being done, being overcharged, decisions being taken etc. US condo associations, Scottish factors, English management company agents.... there are always bad and good ones.

Answers in bold

homemover21

I have been in this situation before. I kept the cat as a cat is family. Nothing more was said. No one has a right to enter your property to assert that a cat is present, so keep it in a set of rooms that are not as exposed to the outside. That will be the end of the of the matter. 

Luisaandhercat

davidmcn said:But didn't your solicitor advise you what the lease said? Or at least suggest that you read it yourself?

Did not advise much. Of course he said in an email "read the paperwork".

Luisaandhercat

Slithery said:

At the end of the day all of this discussion isn't going to help you in any way.
You have 2 options - either move or get rid of the cat. You need to decide which one you are going to do.

I could think of those two options myself but I wrote on the forum to ask if someone had gone through this or knew someone who did, so as to know whether there are any reasonable, amicable shades/options between black and white.

Luisaandhercat

annetheman said:

I'm heartbroken for you, OP. My sister calls us "cat people" sad but my cat is my baby and I can understand how the potential fallout of the management co's decision can be devastating. I would be inconsolable. Some excellent advice on page 1 from @princeofpounds said it all perfectly. You really do need to appeal to the management company director's better nature, whatever you think of them...

I wish you the best of luck. Lesson learnt, as you say - read your lease, for many many reasons (just bought a flat myself and got permission before I completed, I can guarantee you I would not have gone through with it without it). 

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. My fiancee is truly inconsolable right now. Hence my trying to look for solutions. I have never seen her so devastated. I'll wait for their next email and take it from there. Thanks.

Luisaandhercat

homemover21 said:

I have been in this situation before. I kept the cat as a cat is family. Nothing more was said. No one has a right to enter your property to assert that a cat is present, so keep it in a set of rooms that are not as exposed to the outside. That will be the end of the of the matter. 

Thank you for your comments and honesty. May I please ask you how long you kept it like that for?

I read in the lease that they have a right to come in to do repairs, check stuff, etc. as long as they give you notice. Did you have that in your lease? Where your Directors nice people though? I can't say anything about my other two Directors, but the one who reported (regardless of my issue) is someone I can see not being nice (many reasons for that).

I'd be delighted if I was in your shoes, but giving all the opinions here I am a bit scared to do that.