BITCOIN

User232002

HansOndabush said:

Bitcoin doesn't fix anything let alone the world's money supply; that is laughable. You can't even buy a pizza with it from the 'Bitcoin pizza company'. 

How many times do you need to be told that Bitcoin is not a currency before you actually understand it?

Nobody cares what some random company is doing with Bitcoin and pizza. They aren't important and their opinion or actions either way don't mean anything. 

HansOndabush said:

Having lost 50% of its value in a month you can no longer argue it is a store of wealth. What exactly is it fixing that gold can't address?

*Yawn* We've been over this... Gold has been flat during a decade which has seen an absolutely obscene amount of money printing. It looks like Gold is asleep at the wheel.

Zoom out, we're still crashing upwards.

HansOndabush said:

As for claiming it is not an environmental problem, Elon Musk who I dare say has more Bitcoin than you and more to lose, has nevertheless acknowledged the energy wastage of Bitcoin such that he back tracked on Tesla accepting Bitcoin. If there is no issue as you maintain then he would not have done that.

I'm sure Tesla not accepting Bitcoin for cars was a massive disappointment to the approximately 5 people that intended to use it as such. Its already been pointed out that no rational person was going to use BTC to buy a Tesla.

Elon publicly agreed with the argument put forward by Jack Dorsey and Cathie Wood that Bitcoin incentivises renewable energy. I also refuse to believe that he bought $1.5B of BTC without researching the energy issue beforehand. I have no idea why he tweeted out what he did but I'll offer three rational explanations:

1. He's being Elon and manipulating markets for self interest. There is some evidence to suggest he has a large holding of Dogecoin acquired at an obscenely low price. I've not verified this myself, but he has prior form for this.
2. Hes dealing with pressure from investors or influence with environmental interests that aren't as educated and it may be more prudent in the short term to capitulate rather than try and educate them. Lord knows this thread alone is a pretty good example of peoples resistance to logical thought.
3. Hes motivated by legacy and wants to identify a problem before announcing the solution in a few months and being lauded as the 'saviour.'

Either way, hes pumping an absolute s***coin and clearly doesn't give a damn about ordinary people buying in to that, so I don't particularly care for him. Bottom line is that the environmental argument is just another in a long list of faux arguments people throw at Bitcoin either because of jealousy that they missed out or exasperation because they just don't understand it. The energy usage secures the Bitcoin network and its an order of magnitude lower than that of Gold mining/storage. So its a net benefit to humanity to switch to the BTC network rather than keeping bars of gold in bank vaults. This even ignores all the other good stuff about Bitcoins energy usage (incentivising renewable energy creation, energy usage compared to real world banking system in cross border payments etc)

HansOndabush said:

You are a classic crypto cultist who understands it all but cannot explain anything to other intelligent people. 

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think you're intelligent.

User232002

thegentleway said:

It's a stretch to call it money but it does offer a potential international payment system. International payments/transfers are a bit slow and expensive but banks could step up their game if there was sufficient pressure/competition (e.g. used to take 3 working days with CHAPS to transfer money withing UK and now takes minutes with FPS). 

Really? Every time I try to make a transaction with my UK bank I get told to verify the transaction via phonecall (even though I'm doing it on my internet banking which has already required 3 identifying pieces of information and 2FA to get in). Regulation has made them liable for transferring funds to incorrect accounts which has led to these inefficiencies. I pay £25/mo to receive my salary in to my bank account. This isnt progress or innovation.

thegentleway said:

There are also plenty of anti-inflationary assets already, e.g. gold, commodities, real estate, etc... It's entirely possible that Bitcoin could disrupt either or both of these areas.

None of which are doing a very good job. Bitcoin is outperforming them all.

thegentleway said:

It has the potential to be useful but it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin does not pay anythying whereas bonds pay coupons and shares pay dividends, it's a fairly obvious difference. I'm not sure why you keep trying to obfuscate this simple fact? It's precisely why I invest in shares/bonds but I don't invest in gold as it doesn't pay an income and is purely speculative (gold is still useful though).

Sure, tell me more about your bonds that are yielding negative real rates of return please...

Did you miss the part where I said you can loan your digital assets out and generate passive rates of interest on it of around 10-15% if you want to be conservative and 100%+ if you have some idea of what you're doing? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's a better rate than any dividends you're currently getting. 

thegentleway said:

We should definitely reduce our energy consumption until we generate it without burning fossil fuels.

This is idiotic and the type of irrational thinking I'm talking about on the energy front... Mandating reduced energy consumption forces lower energy use, obviously. It doesn't, greatly, incentivise renewable energy generation. The environment issue would be fixed pretty quickly if the incentives of the system were aligned with the desired goals. 

Luckily, most policy makers aren't idiots (or, probably, have non-idiots telling them what to do) which is why the argument is framed in terms of carbon emissions rather than energy usage. Energy usage is good, carbon emissions are not. They are not one and the same.

thegentleway said:

You're misinformed. Most of the bitcoin mining is done in China which is mostly powered by coal.

You're mostly repeating sillyness written by the mainstream media here, who are actually the uninformed ones. Inner Mongolia banned Bitcoin mining this year (mostly coal) and China's hash rate share has been declining. And lets point out Sichuan; where during the rainy season, the area has an excessive amount of hydro power that can't be stored which is why its now a hub for Bitcoin miners. This is the exact point I'm making - Bitcoin miners gravitate towards sources of renewable energy and become the buyers of last resort. This hydro power generation would be less economically viable without a guaranteed buyer. It explains why Iceland is a Bitcoin mining hub.

thegentleway said:

Sorry you're bored, I find differences in opinions interesting. Surely there are bitcoin forums where everyone agrees it's awesome and anyone who doesn't is stupid which may captivate your attention.

I am indeed. I'll be back at $100k.

thegentleway

darren232002 said:

None of which are doing a very good job. Bitcoin is outperforming them all.

They do a good job against inflation but yes they are not a get rich quick scheme.

darren232002 said:

Sure, tell me more about your bonds that are yielding negative real rates of return please...

Did you miss the part where I said you can loan your digital assets out and generate passive rates of interest on it of around 10-15% if you want to be conservative and 100%+ if you have some idea of what you're doing? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's a better rate than any dividends you're currently getting.

Nice switch and bait.

darren232002 said:

This is idiotic and the type of irrational thinking I'm talking about on the energy front... Mandating reduced energy consumption forces lower energy use, obviously. It doesn't, greatly, incentivise renewable energy generation. The environment issue would be fixed pretty quickly if the incentives of the system were aligned with the desired goals. 

Luckily, most policy makers aren't idiots (or, probably, have non-idiots telling them what to do) which is why the argument is framed in terms of carbon emissions rather than energy usage. Energy usage is good, carbon emissions are not. They are not one and the same.

Policy makers are probably not idiots but they are easily influenced by the oil industry lobbies.

As you can tell by my comment on generating energy without burning fossil fuels, we agree about carbon emissions.
I also agree with you that the incentives are wrong. Until then all we can do is reduce our energy consumption and pressure our government.

darren232002 said:

You're mostly repeating sillyness written by the mainstream media here, who are actually the uninformed ones. Inner Mongolia banned Bitcoin mining this year (mostly coal) and China's hash rate share has been declining. And lets point out Sichuan; where during the rainy season, the area has an excessive amount of hydro power that can't be stored which is why its now a hub for Bitcoin miners. This is the exact point I'm making - Bitcoin miners gravitate towards sources of renewable energy and become the buyers of last resort. This hydro power generation would be less economically viable without a guaranteed buyer. It explains why Iceland is a Bitcoin mining hub.

You're misinformed. Bitcoin mining by country is easy to find without using mainstream media. China does most the mining and it does it mostly burning coal. Sichuan? Get it a rest. It accounts for a tiny amount of hash power. At the end of the day renewable is not a good match for Bitcoin mining as 24/7 operations are best for ROI on mining devices.
Did you see the US company that just restarted Greenidge coal power plant for the sole purpose of mining Bitcoin? I guess that's just sillyness from the mainstream media as well...

darren232002 said:

I am indeed. I'll be back at $100k.

See you then mate. It would be cool if it hits 6 digits. Plenty of my friends have bet more than they can afford to lose on it.

Scottex99

HansOndabush said:

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Malthusian said:

HansOndabush said:

New Bitcoin Pizza company won't accept bitcoin as payment; ha ha what a joke this thing is:

https://www.businessinsider.in/cryptocurrency/news/crypto-investor-anthony-pompliano-launches-a-bitcoin-themed-pizza-service-in-the-us-that-wont-accept-the-digital-asset-as-payment/articleshow/82766763.cms

Of course he doesn't. Nobody who owns Bitcoin would be daft enough to pay for pizza in Bitcoin.

Why would anyone give away their Bitcoin for a pizza instead of hodling it while it goes to the moon? 

Why would anyone start a 'Bitcoin pizza company' that won't accept Bitcoin for payment? Like saying he'd rather take dollars. Hardly an endorsement for Bitcoin. Just the sort of nonsense that is typical of the crypto crowd.
As for going to the moon, I think a further drop to $20k is likely.

You dont hold any crypto right? And think it's "likely" that it's going to 20k? Why? Because it went down a lot yesterday?

The chart pattern suggests it is going to 20K.

"The chart pattern" Which one is that?

Candlestick chart for Bitcoin showing clear head and shoulders pattern. The neck line was broken after the second shoulder and the initial drop from there was to 30K resistance. After that breaks, nothing to support the price until 20K. Don't you use charts at work?

 Cup and Handles, inverted Bart Simpson.

Actually no , I do very little TA personally and for the firm I trade Spot OTC. 

I'm sure there are plenty of people who have plotted there way to a fortune but I'm too lazy and I kind of think it's 50% nonsense anyway. I do have a few candlestick books that I've been meaning to read but dont get round to it

HansOndabush

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Malthusian said:

HansOndabush said:

New Bitcoin Pizza company won't accept bitcoin as payment; ha ha what a joke this thing is:

https://www.businessinsider.in/cryptocurrency/news/crypto-investor-anthony-pompliano-launches-a-bitcoin-themed-pizza-service-in-the-us-that-wont-accept-the-digital-asset-as-payment/articleshow/82766763.cms

Of course he doesn't. Nobody who owns Bitcoin would be daft enough to pay for pizza in Bitcoin.

Why would anyone give away their Bitcoin for a pizza instead of hodling it while it goes to the moon? 

Why would anyone start a 'Bitcoin pizza company' that won't accept Bitcoin for payment? Like saying he'd rather take dollars. Hardly an endorsement for Bitcoin. Just the sort of nonsense that is typical of the crypto crowd.
As for going to the moon, I think a further drop to $20k is likely.

You dont hold any crypto right? And think it's "likely" that it's going to 20k? Why? Because it went down a lot yesterday?

The chart pattern suggests it is going to 20K.

"The chart pattern" Which one is that?

Candlestick chart for Bitcoin showing clear head and shoulders pattern. The neck line was broken after the second shoulder and the initial drop from there was to 30K resistance. After that breaks, nothing to support the price until 20K. Don't you use charts at work?

 Cup and Handles, inverted Bart Simpson.

Actually no , I do very little TA personally and for the firm I trade Spot OTC. 

I'm sure there are plenty of people who have plotted there way to a fortune but I'm too lazy and I kind of think it's 50% nonsense anyway. I do have a few candlestick books that I've been meaning to read but dont get round to it

Seriously you should. The charts tell you where the price action has been and often where you can expect it to be again. If you had done some technical analysis on Bitcoin you would have saved yourself $$$$'s

Meanwhile a CNBC clip I'm sure you'll enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igOmWeHMunw

ZeroSum

darren232002 said:

Really? Every time I try to make a transaction with my UK bank I get told to verify the transaction via phonecall (even though I'm doing it on my internet banking which has already required 3 identifying pieces of information and 2FA to get in). Regulation has made them liable for transferring funds to incorrect accounts which has led to these inefficiencies. I pay £25/mo to receive my salary in to my bank account. This isnt progress or innovation.

Maybe you should try a different bank as I dont have any of those problems.

Michael121

Melanie⚔️ (@melaniemadri) / Twitter
Look at this for charting then 

Scottex99

Seriously you should. The charts tell you where the price action has been and often where you can expect it to be again. If you had done some technical analysis on Bitcoin you would have saved yourself $$$$'s

Lol yeah coz its that simple.

Had 6 figs wiped off my portfolio in the last week or so. Happens. I'm not even trying to time the market because I'm THAT bullish long term

User232002

thegentleway said:

They do a good job against inflation but yes they are not a get rich quick scheme.

Gold 0% for a decade. Inflation also 0%? By 'good job' I assume you mean 'can't keep up'

thegentleway said:

Nice switch and bait.

"I have no counter argument and don't understand how you can generate a return from a digital asset, so I'll pretend its irrelevant"

thegentleway said:

See you then mate. It would be cool if it hits 6 digits. Plenty of my friends have bet more than they can afford to lose on it.

Attempts to set himself up for a win-win no matter what happens to the price of BTC.

HansOndabush

Scottex99 said:

Seriously you should. The charts tell you where the price action has been and often where you can expect it to be again. If you had done some technical analysis on Bitcoin you would have saved yourself $$$$'s

Lol yeah coz its that simple.

Had 6 figs wiped off my portfolio in the last week or so. Happens. I'm not even trying to time the market because I'm THAT bullish long term

There was a classic pattern on bitcoin there for all to see. A week ago you could have got out when the neckline of that pattern broke. Too late now but don't ignore the technical signals next time. It's better to see what the market is telling you rather than follow a cult mantra.