BITCOIN

Pearce7630

Is investing in Bitcoin really worth it or is it all just a scam ? 

bowlhead99

I expect the people who invested at a few dollars or a few hundred dollars per coin and later sold some of the coins for ten to twenty thousand dollars a coin probably found it worth it.

The ones who piled in at almost twenty thousand dollars three years ago and then found themselves needing the money back a year later when it was only going for three thousand a coin, or perhaps this March after they had seen it go back up to ten thousand again before falling back to four thousand as the Covid crisis hit, probably feel that it was not really worth it, and if they have now reached a point where they have got back to break even, might decide to call it a day.

Bitcoin isn't a 'scam' just for existing. People are free to pay whatever they like for whatever they like. However, the fact that it is a commodity known to have volatile pricing and that its price moves are attracting the attention of people who suffer from Fear of Missing Out - causing a lot of new threads about cryptocurrency on savings and investment discussion groups, for example - may be expected to attract sharks and scam artists.

When the barrowboys and hackney carriage drivers are sharing stock tips, the stock market may be in a bubble. When people who don't know much about cryptocurrency wonder if it is finally time to 'have a go' now the price is $19408 instead of $10, the bitcoin market may be in a bubble.

FWIW I bought a few thousand pounds worth of a bitcoin ETC within my pension around four months ago . As of last Thursday it was up 53% and by this afternoon up 68%, so I sold a bit then and a bit now, and will hang on to the rest. Nobody knows where it will go next, so if someone is telling you they do, it will probably be a scam.

garmeg

bowlhead99 said:

I expect the people who invested at a few dollars or a few hundred dollars per coin and later sold some of the coins for ten to twenty thousand dollars a coin probably found it worth it.

The ones who piled in at almost twenty thousand dollars three years ago and then found themselves needing the money back a year later when it was only going for three thousand a coin, or perhaps this March after they had seen it go back up to ten thousand again before falling back to four thousand as the Covid crisis hit, probably feel that it was not really worth it, and if they have now reached a point where they have got back to break even, might decide to call it a day.

Bitcoin isn't a 'scam' just for existing. People are free to pay whatever they like for whatever they like. However, the fact that it is a commodity known to have volatile pricing and that its price moves are attracting the attention of people who suffer from Fear of Missing Out - causing a lot of new threads about cryptocurrency on savings and investment discussion groups, for example - may be expected to attract sharks and scam artists.

When the barrowboys and hackney carriage drivers are sharing stock tips, the stock market may be in a bubble. When people who don't know much about cryptocurrency wonder if it is finally time to 'have a go' now the price is $19408 instead of $10, the bitcoin market may be in a bubble.

FWIW I bought a few thousand pounds worth of a bitcoin ETC within my pension around four months ago . As of last Thursday it was up 53% and by this afternoon up 68%, so I sold a bit then and a bit now, and will hang on to the rest. Nobody knows where it will go next, so if someone is telling you they do, it will probably be a scam.

Do you have an epic code for this ETC?

Thanks

Another_Saver

This is a copy and paste job from my post in the last bitcoin thread (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77716012#Comment_77716012)

Firstly bitcoin is not an "investment" per se. It's a digital currency or commodity, completely unregulated, with no FSCS protection of any kind at all, which pays you no interest, rent or dividends like a savings account, bond, buy to let property or share in a company would. There is absolutely no certainty at at all that it will generate a positive return, in the same way a savings account or an investment into a good multi-asset fund or broad global index fund is almost guaranteed to over the long term, barring an apocalypse.

Secondly it is extremely volatile.

Thirdly, the only people who "invest" in it are bitcoin cultists and the people stupid enough to be duped by the bitcoin cultists.

Now, it you're willing to accept all that and think "ok, maybe I would still like just a little of my wealth in bitcoin, say 1% or so" you run into the next problem.

The "bitcoin investment industry" abounds with scams.

Bitcoin "brokers" come and go all the time and when not if the broker you choose goes under, you're unlikely to have any recourse to recover your bitcoins.

Finally, if you have to ask on this forum a bunch of strangers on the internet whether "investing" in bitcoin is a good idea, this demonstrates that you do not understand it nearly well enough and should stay away.

This comment was sponsored by common sense.

Bitcoin bros telling me I'm wrong in 3, 2, 1...

bowlhead99

garmeg said:

bowlhead99 said:

I expect the people who invested at a few dollars or a few hundred dollars per coin and later sold some of the coins for ten to twenty thousand dollars a coin probably found it worth it.

The ones who piled in at almost twenty thousand dollars three years ago and then found themselves needing the money back a year later when it was only going for three thousand a coin, or perhaps this March after they had seen it go back up to ten thousand again before falling back to four thousand as the Covid crisis hit, probably feel that it was not really worth it, and if they have now reached a point where they have got back to break even, might decide to call it a day.

Bitcoin isn't a 'scam' just for existing. People are free to pay whatever they like for whatever they like. However, the fact that it is a commodity known to have volatile pricing and that its price moves are attracting the attention of people who suffer from Fear of Missing Out - causing a lot of new threads about cryptocurrency on savings and investment discussion groups, for example - may be expected to attract sharks and scam artists.

When the barrowboys and hackney carriage drivers are sharing stock tips, the stock market may be in a bubble. When people who don't know much about cryptocurrency wonder if it is finally time to 'have a go' now the price is $19408 instead of $10, the bitcoin market may be in a bubble.

FWIW I bought a few thousand pounds worth of a bitcoin ETC within my pension around four months ago . As of last Thursday it was up 53% and by this afternoon up 68%, so I sold a bit then and a bit now, and will hang on to the rest. Nobody knows where it will go next, so if someone is telling you they do, it will probably be a scam.

Do you have an epic code for this ETC?

Thanks

I used BTCetc's Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (issued by BTC Issuance GmbH) trades on Xetra in Frankfurt as BTCE (Sedol: BMWSLR9; ISIN: DE000A27Z304)

A rival would be XBT Provider AB's Bitcoin Tracker One (ISIN: SE0007126024) for the Swedish Krona version or  their Bitcoin Tracker Euro (ISIN: SE0007525332) for Euro version.  It has been going a bit longer and is a bit bigger (HL wrote some headlines about offering it when they first started to do so), but has a higher ongoing charge (2.5% vs 2%)

Another_Saver said:

Bitcoin "brokers" come and go all the time and when not if the broker you choose goes under, you're unlikely to have any recourse to recover your bitcoins.

FWIW, I have used Bitstamp without issue since about 2014. At the time they were one of the largest and most credible with proper customer identification requirements which the fly-by-night sharks didn't really bother with. These days they are not at all the largest in liquidity and volume, and won't be the cheapest in transaction fees, but still credible as a legitimate pricing source and I've never had a problem. There are no doubt better providers these days as the market has expanded greatly, but easier for me to just use them again rather than test the water with someone else. 

There are some brokers of conventional investments who will let you take exposure to BTC without actually holding the coins yourself (e.g. I did some trades on eToro earlier this year) though you would have real counterparty risk with that option if you never planned to actually take delivery of the coins and just wanted 'exposure'.  Or you could simply spreadbet it with IG.com. Still, whether buying it or betting it, it is pretty much a gamble what the price will do next, and people can lose lots of money gambling.

EdGasketTheSecond

Isn't bitcoin another bubble like tulip bulbs were? It has no intrinsic value and no rarity value either really as new cryptos are being dreamed up everyday. The only value is what enthusiasts assign to it and that could easily evaporate. Why should any servers carry on supporting it once the last Bitcoin has been mined? Then what are you left with? Nothing but an interesting digital number. The fact that so many people are touting it and react very aggressively if you say anything against Bitcoin should warn you that we are in another 'mania' just like previous ones throughout history.

bowlhead99

EdGasketTheSecond said:

The fact that so many people are touting it and react very aggressively if you say anything against Bitcoin should warn you that we are in another 'mania' just like previous ones throughout history.

Good job they are not doing that here. What with all the people touting it and reacting aggressively if you say anything against it, and all the people naysaying and reacting aggressively if you say anything for it, the threads usually descend into tiresome farce within the first few pages.

Doomed!

k12479

EdGasketTheSecond said:

Why should any servers carry on supporting it once the last Bitcoin has been mined?

For the transaction fees?

fwor

bowlhead99 said:

Doomed!

There are certainly technical issues, but there's a more fundamental issue with Bitcoin - and that is that it doesn't solve a problem for the vast majority of the population - it simply doesn't do anything useful as a currency that my credit card and £Sterling can't.

Bitcoin has been in existence for well over a decade now, and in the whole of that time I have never come across a situation where I wished I owned some Bitcoin in order to buy something.

If it has taken more than a decade to prove its usefulness to the general population - and failed - it seems reasonable to assume that it never will.

EdGasketTheSecond

fwor said:

bowlhead99 said:

Doomed!

Bitcoin has been in existence for well over a decade now, and in the whole of that time I have never come across a situation where I wished I owned some Bitcoin in order to buy something.

You never hired a hit man then?

Reaper

I distrust crypto. The early hype that you could use it as a currency has faded away. Those wanting to buy a cup of coffee with it are struggling these days and without an end use for it then it's just an imaginary commodity, not worth the paper is isn't written on.

BUT - and it's a big but

Some things mean it may have some upside left to go.
1) Paypal - in the US customers can now buy crypto using Paypal making it very simple. This will be extended to the UK and elsewhere in 2021. Paypal buying up crypto has had an effect on the market recently.
2) Paypal again - next year they plan to make it so you can spend crypto on everything that accepts Paypal. That MIGHT finally mean it starts becoming more useful. On the other hand I suspect the charges and not knowing what exchange rate you will get will stop it amounting to much.
3) Most mining is done in China and the authorities there have closed down the last of the exchanges they were using to offload their coins. That has caused a drop in supply, at least in the short term until they find a way round it.
4) It is getting harder for miners to add to the market. Next year the amount of bitcoins they mine will drop by a half, and keep doing so.
5) I have some Ether coins. They are in the process of launching to Etherium 2.0 which may draw more attention to it and also it has tied up a chunk of Ether on the market which is now locked up until it launches, reducing supply amongst the most active (though we aren't talking much. About 0.5% of the total)
6) Previous crashes after a boom have come after the late arrival of ordinary consumers. I have been expecting lots of enthusiastic threads on here and elsewhere from ordinary punters but there has been very little so far. I sold half my Ether holding a couple of days ago for a modest 25% profit. I'll sell the rest when I see people getting all excited about the booming prices again.