BITCOIN

lozzy1965

Malthusian said:
It is a closed system, and it is true. Punters' money in == punters' money out.

Isn't that true of any investment?

Atlas234

Malthusian said:

Atlas234 said:

If it was a closed system then that would be true, but there is new money and new people entering the market all the time. I can sell my bitcoin at 10x profit to a new investor who thinks they'll get 10x a more a few years down the line and no one has lost anything

And how does that new investor cash out at a profit, and where does the money come from?

It is a closed system, and it is true. Punters' money in == punters' money out.

Its really not that different to the stock market, just a lot newer and more volatile
Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation
Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest
Ownership of coins/tokens will give you voting privileges in many projects
There are futures and options contracts should you wish
You cant sell your coins without another punter buying it off you just the same as you cant sell your shares without someone buying them off you

lozzy1965

Atlas234 said:
Its really not that different to the stock market, just a lot newer and more volatile

Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation
Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest
Ownership of coins/tokens will give you voting privileges in many projects
There are futures and options contracts should you wish
You cant sell your coins without another punter buying it off you just the same as you cant sell your shares without someone buying them off you

That's what I just said!!!  But you put it with far more detail
The bit's in bold are interesting. 

Malthusian

lozzy1965 said:
Isn't that true of any investment?

No. Dividends and interest on shares and loans issued by businesses, for example, are paid from money which comes from businesses adding value to their inputs and generating profits. Profits don't always happen but that is the hope, and if you diversify properly, it becomes an expectation rather than a hope.

Those profits entering the equation means it is not a closed system.

Bitcoins do nothing, and generate no profits. The only money in comes from other punters. It is a closed system.

Atlas234 said:

Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation

There is no such thing as market capitalisation for a crypto token. Nobody is going to buy every single Bitcoin in existence for $40,000 each. By contrast there is a material possibility of a business being bought out for its market cap or something around that figure.

Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest

Which come from where?

In the absence of a business adding value to its inputs and generating profits, punters' money in == punters' money out. How that money is shuffled around is irrelevant.

Atlas234

Malthusian said:

lozzy1965 said:
Isn't that true of any investment?

No. Dividends and interest on shares and loans issued by businesses, for example, are paid from money which comes from businesses adding value to their inputs and generating profits. Profits don't always happen but that is the hope, and if you diversify properly, it becomes an expectation rather than a hope.

Those profits entering the equation means it is not a closed system.

Bitcoins do nothing, and generate no profits. The only money in comes from other punters. It is a closed system.

Atlas234 said:

Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation

There is no such thing as market capitalisation for a crypto token. Nobody is going to buy every single Bitcoin in existence for $40,000 each. By contrast there is a material possibility of a business being bought out for its market cap or something around that figure.

Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest

Which come from where?

In the absence of a business adding value to its inputs and generating profits, punters' money in == punters' money out. How that money is shuffled around is irrelevant.

Transactions fees are taken from payment services, these are redistributed to coin holders as staking rewards just the same as trading profits are redistributed to share holders through dividends

Thrugelmir

lozzy1965 said:

Malthusian said:
It is a closed system, and it is true. Punters' money in == punters' money out.

Isn't that true of any investment?

Investors lend their money to companies to create wealth. The function of stock markets is to raise capital. Not just a speculation numbers game played on a screen. 

thegentleway

Atlas234 said:

Malthusian said:

lozzy1965 said:
Isn't that true of any investment?

No. Dividends and interest on shares and loans issued by businesses, for example, are paid from money which comes from businesses adding value to their inputs and generating profits. Profits don't always happen but that is the hope, and if you diversify properly, it becomes an expectation rather than a hope.

Those profits entering the equation means it is not a closed system.

Bitcoins do nothing, and generate no profits. The only money in comes from other punters. It is a closed system.

Atlas234 said:

Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation

There is no such thing as market capitalisation for a crypto token. Nobody is going to buy every single Bitcoin in existence for $40,000 each. By contrast there is a material possibility of a business being bought out for its market cap or something around that figure.

Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest

Which come from where?

In the absence of a business adding value to its inputs and generating profits, punters' money in == punters' money out. How that money is shuffled around is irrelevant.

Transactions fees are taken from payment services, these are redistributed to coin holders as staking rewards just the same as trading profits are redistributed to share holders through dividends

Only on obscure altcoins using proof of stake, not Bitcoin/Ethereum. Stake rewards are more tokens whereas dividends aren’t more shares...

Malthusian

Atlas234 said:

Malthusian said:

lozzy1965 said:
Isn't that true of any investment?

No. Dividends and interest on shares and loans issued by businesses, for example, are paid from money which comes from businesses adding value to their inputs and generating profits. Profits don't always happen but that is the hope, and if you diversify properly, it becomes an expectation rather than a hope.

Those profits entering the equation means it is not a closed system.

Bitcoins do nothing, and generate no profits. The only money in comes from other punters. It is a closed system.

Atlas234 said:

Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation

There is no such thing as market capitalisation for a crypto token. Nobody is going to buy every single Bitcoin in existence for $40,000 each. By contrast there is a material possibility of a business being bought out for its market cap or something around that figure.

Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest

Which come from where?

In the absence of a business adding value to its inputs and generating profits, punters' money in == punters' money out. How that money is shuffled around is irrelevant.

Transactions fees are taken from payment services, these are redistributed to coin holders as staking rewards just the same as trading profits are redistributed to share holders through dividends

Taking a transaction fee from tokens moved from punter A to punter B and paying it to punter C = punters' money. Punters' money in == punters' money out.

This is not the same as a business adding value to its inputs and selling its outputs for a profit.

Taking some punters' money already in the system and giving it a new name (staking, burning, transaction fees, whatever) doesn't turn it into an external input.

Atlas234

Bitcoin is proof of work, the others are hardly obscure, cardano, polkadot and many many other are pos, ethereum is practically unusable under its current pow iteration, with the huge fees, they are in the middle of transitioning to etgereum 2.0 which will be pos

Atlas234

Malthusian said:

Atlas234 said:

Malthusian said:

lozzy1965 said:
Isn't that true of any investment?

No. Dividends and interest on shares and loans issued by businesses, for example, are paid from money which comes from businesses adding value to their inputs and generating profits. Profits don't always happen but that is the hope, and if you diversify properly, it becomes an expectation rather than a hope.

Those profits entering the equation means it is not a closed system.

Bitcoins do nothing, and generate no profits. The only money in comes from other punters. It is a closed system.

Atlas234 said:

Coins have valuation based on their current market capitalisation

There is no such thing as market capitalisation for a crypto token. Nobody is going to buy every single Bitcoin in existence for $40,000 each. By contrast there is a material possibility of a business being bought out for its market cap or something around that figure.

Dividends are paid in the form of staking rewards and interest

Which come from where?

In the absence of a business adding value to its inputs and generating profits, punters' money in == punters' money out. How that money is shuffled around is irrelevant.

Transactions fees are taken from payment services, these are redistributed to coin holders as staking rewards just the same as trading profits are redistributed to share holders through dividends

Taking a transaction fee from tokens moved from punter A to punter B and paying it to punter C = punters' money. Punters' money in == punters' money out.

This is not the same as a business adding value to its inputs and selling its outputs for a profit.

Taking some punters' money already in the system and giving it a new name (staking, burning, transaction fees, whatever) doesn't turn it into an external input.

The banks make enough profits moving money from one entity to another... There are many for profit companies in crypto and many other use cases other than just payments