Can My Daughter Leave Wales For Essential Training ?

Aranyani

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

Dr_Crypto

Do I have to be a 15 year old about to sit their GCSEs to realise that disrupting school is bad for their future? Or some poor sod finishing uni with no job and a huge student debt to realise that the economy is going to be screwed? 

badmemory

Where in the statistics do the ones who were diagnosed 3 months ago & have been in hospital with it since & died yesterday appear?  So more than 28 days but still of the virus.  Are they excluded from the figures?  Does anyone actually know?

Many, many years ago I used to work in the statistics dept of a university, the (non-academic) running joke was always lies, damn lies & statistics.  So I await the proof of the source of the statistics.  Not going to hold my breath though cos I doubt this shower has a clue.

Grumpy_chap

Aranyani said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

The life and wellbeing of 80 to is important, but what Dr Crypto says is the harsh reality of common sense.

Even considering my own father (now passed), he 'needed' treatment that would have been wasted on him, even if he could cope with the stresses of the treatment (which a younger patient would tolerate far better).  Part of assessing the value of the individual's life and wellbeing is whether prolonging their life also supports their wellbeing.

Aranyani

Grumpy_chap said:

Aranyani said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

Part of assessing the value of the individual's life and wellbeing is whether prolonging their life also supports their wellbeing.

Absolutely, but age alone tells you very little and shouldn't be the defining characteristic in decision making. 

MattMattMattUK

Aranyani said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

Resources are limited, on that basis they are applied where the most benefit can be had. If there are 100 units of resources and it takes 10 to treat an 80 year old, with a 25% probability of success, or 2, to treat a 40 year old with a 50% probability of success you save more people by targeting the limited resources at the younger people.

Also as people age medical intervention can be less useful and often it is obvious that it will not result in a positive outcome, sometimes even just extending suffering for what would otherwise be a fairly quick and painless death. 

When I am 80 I would not want to undergo medical procedures with little to no chance of success, even more so if that would deprive someone of treatment of who had high probability of recovery. 

Your idealism may be admirable if you were a child, but in the real, grown-up world we have to make pragmatic decisions on how to allocate limited resources. That means doing the most amount of good possible, not trying to save everyone, but in doing so causing more death and suffering overall.

MattMattMattUK

Aranyani said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Aranyani said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

Part of assessing the value of the individual's life and wellbeing is whether prolonging their life also supports their wellbeing.

Absolutely, but age alone tells you very little and shouldn't be the defining characteristic in decision making. 

Clinicians do not use it in isolation and no one here is suggesting they do.

Age, especially at the extremes also has a very high correlation (and often causation) with health issues, expected life remaining declining with increased age. So whilst on an individual basis it will not be the only determining factor, it is highly relevant when conducting an analysis across large groups of people.

Jeremy535897

The trouble with this sort of judgment is it is too narrow. There is logic in saying we'll save two 18 year olds rather than one 80 year old. But when it comes to spending hundreds of thousands on either a 1% chance of saving an innocent child's life, or keeping a remorseless serial killer alive for years in jail, we spend it on the murderer.

Aranyani

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

Resources are limited, on that basis they are applied where the most benefit can be had. If there are 100 units of resources and it takes 10 to treat an 80 year old, with a 25% probability of success, or 2, to treat a 40 year old with a 50% probability of success you save more people by targeting the limited resources at the younger people.

Also as people age medical intervention can be less useful and often it is obvious that it will not result in a positive outcome, sometimes even just extending suffering for what would otherwise be a fairly quick and painless death. 

When I am 80 I would not want to undergo medical procedures with little to no chance of success, even more so if that would deprive someone of treatment of who had high probability of recovery. 

Your idealism may be admirable if you were a child, but in the real, grown-up world we have to make pragmatic decisions on how to allocate limited resources. That means doing the most amount of good possible, not trying to save everyone, but in doing so causing more death and suffering overall.

We have more than enough resources in this country to provide appropriate care to everybody.

Aranyani

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Aranyani said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Aranyani said:

Dr_Crypto said:

Nobody knows how long those patients would have lived. In my area the average age of death for covid patients was 82. In all likelihood those patients wouldn’t have lived that much long. 

How can you know based on just age?  All my grandparents have lived years past that, and I just saw an article on the news about a 90 year old golfer in rude health, certainly not ready to drop dead.   

Because, in general, older people, especially over 80, don’t have much longer to live. 

That’s not to say that some won’t live to 100 but in general we don’t target massive healthcare resources to over 80s  At the expense of much younger patients. 

I really really hope you aren't actually a doctor. 

I really hope you are not in charge of any public budgets.

When you are 80 you may have a different view on whether or not the life and wellbeing of an 80 year old matters. 

Part of assessing the value of the individual's life and wellbeing is whether prolonging their life also supports their wellbeing.

Absolutely, but age alone tells you very little and shouldn't be the defining characteristic in decision making. 

Clinicians do not use it in isolation and no one here is suggesting they do.

Age, especially at the extremes also has a very high correlation (and often causation) with health issues, expected life remaining declining with increased age. So whilst on an individual basis it will not be the only determining factor, it is highly relevant when conducting an analysis across large groups of people.

Analysis yes, treatment decisions no.  They must always be based on the individual concerned.