New face covering measures

MidsHollie

It’s not just about deaths though is it. 

For every 100 people that go to ICU that are working at time of illness, only 66 return to work. So 33 will rely on benefits for the rest of their lives and suffer the effects that unwanted unemployment gives. As a young, reasonably healthy female with no known underlying health conditions, I am considered low risk. Getting COVID and dying is of some concern to me. But getting COVID related disability and being unable to work again terrifies me.

The excess deaths that COVID has bought, and the unsupported grief is tragic. But the impact of long term disability as a result of COVID will be felt by individuals, families and the nation as a whole for many years to come. 

JamoLew

MidsHollie said:

It’s not just about deaths though is it. 

For every 100 people that go to ICU that are working at time of illness, only 66 return to work. So 33 will rely on benefits for the rest of their lives and suffer the effects that unwanted unemployment gives. 

can you link your source for that please
regardless - the excess deaths from other causes and insufficient health care would still far outstrip 1/3 of ICU admissions IMO
Or are you arguing that excess deaths no matter how many actually save the country money in the long run whereas the long term effects and support cost more ?
Regardless, as I already said - its a delicate balancing act which we haven't found the pivot point of yet

MidsHollie

@JamoLew, I’m not arguing anything, I only posted to add to a discussion and raise a point that death isn’t the only outcome that on both an individual and a humanitarian basis, we should be concerned about. 

The 1/3 unemployment post ICU stat is widely acknowledged throughout post critical care literature, but here is the link to one systematic review that evidences it in a population particularly relevant to post COVID cases, and very recently published. Unfortunately full access is only available through log in, but the abstract is detailed enough to evidence my statement.  https://thorax.bmj.com/content/75/1/17
As you’ll also see from this study, the above stat doesn’t include the increased job losses and negative changes in employment seen post ICU

JamoLew

There are actually a few flaws in that publication - the main one being that it doesn't establish a baseline for none ICU patients.
It could be that discharged ICU patients fare better than "normal" fit and healthy people (weirder things have happened)
Also it says: No significant difference was observed based on diagnosis (acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) vs non-ARDS) which would indicate that the issue lies somewhere else (although the numbers would increase as we get more people admitted to ICU)
I do get your point though - hence my belief that we still haven't found the right balance between the short and long term impacts from all the different facets of impact

MidsHollie

Every scientific paper has flaws. 

It doesn’t give a baseline for non-ICU patients because it doesn’t study them. The baseline here that is important is the employment status, and it only evaluated those who were in employment. 

ARDS vs non ARDS and the issue lying somewhere else: absolutely. The issue as you say is in the ITU admission.

Takmon

sweetgirl2015 said:

Takmon said:

sweetgirl2015 said:

Takmon said:

sweetgirl2015 said:

JamoLew said:

well thats what the 1st national lockdown almost covered -- 

I hear you, but I dont necessary agree, because like I was saying earlier, the first lockdown was a shambles. My boyfriend couldn't work from home as his job requires him to be physically there, but not just him all his colleagues too, all sharing the same building and facilities. And I'm pretty sure his situation wasen't rare. So how could we contain a virus like that? Its been profit over life. 
Whereas we been together for four years, yet had to stop seeing each other or move in together, the later being impossible.
Just so many things this year has been so not making sense like that which is why we will just have to live with it as someone rightly said.

This kind of thinking is the problem that the virus is spreading so much because lots of people think the same way as you and somehow they can't seem to understand the difference.

When your boyfriend went to work he should be keeping a distance from others as much as possible, wearing masks or having barriers if they have to work close together, the workplace should have door/windows/extractor fans to ensure adequate ventilation etc. Which is all pretty reasonable. 

But when you and your boyfriend are together you are likely to have no ventilation cuddled up close together with lots of physical contact which makes the virus very easy to spread between you. 

So basically the rules are too allow the economy to keep going but also to prevent situations where people are in close contact with loved ones where it is far more likely to spread.

But my boyfriend said the way the factory is set up even long before covid its inpossible to maintain the 2 metre rule as they have to work in close proximity to each other passing items to each other, and lets not forget it was before masks became mandatory as at first they didnt think masks would stop transmission of the virus. So everyone in that particular factory felt vunerable about catching the virus, some stayed at home with stress, but they were unpaid. And they shared the same canteen for meals as it was not a manageable thing to stagger break times at this factory. Everyone cramned into the canteen together even in lockdown. This is why I call the first lockdown a shambles. 
It was nothing short of a miracle that no one including my boyfriend caught the virus, because if one did they all would have, and took it home to loved ones etc. Not me because we chose to live apart in our own properties. 
So you see what I mean its very often life vs industry. 

But that is purely the fault of the company in question by not implementing any measures. They could have put screen in between employees, did temperature checks, increased air flow and extraction in the work areas, changed shift patterns to space out employees. There was many things they could and still can do but they just seem to refuse to do it and that isn't the fault of the government because they have said all along that workplaces need to be Covid secure.
But then the employees need to take some responsibility and not go into a full canteen and instead go outside or in their cars for example to eat at lunch.

Boyfriend said screens and such like wouldn't have worked as they have to pass things to each other in tandom, and as I explained they couldnt social distance during meal times as it would have meant the chain of work would have meant the whole plant closing anyway so they all have meal times together.  But the government didnt shut them down or didn't know or care I don't know which.
But I get the impression there were lots of cases like that up and down the country. Like boyfriend said and all his colleagues said it didn't feel like a lockdown at all at the time. The only time it felt like it was lockdown was the mile long queues going into Asda Tescos etc. Other than that it was life as normal, oh but the most difficult part was us being apart. It even affected both our children as they missed each other as mine gets on with his very well as they are same ages. 
I do truely believe if the government really wanted to crush this virus dead it could have been done. Just tell the nation to self isolate for 3 weeks, with the exception of nurses and emergency services, water board, electric etc, but normal citizens could and should have stayed at home but they didnt. Now everyone is sufferering. 

Two simple measures would have been for them all been required to wear masks and for extra extraction put in place so there is a flow of air through the factory. At meal times like I said some people could have gone outside or ate in their cars and they could have again put up screens in between seats and increased air circulation. 
It sounds like nothing at all was done and the employer or employees didn't really care and that's not the governments fault that's the fault of the employees. 

If everyone self isolated for three weeks and emergency services etc were still aloud out then they would pass it between each other. Even if everyone in the entire country stayed at home one family member could have it at the start and then 1 week pass it on to the next and then a week later pass it on to the next and 3 weeks wouldn't be enough. 
Until a vaccine is found this virus will not go away and everyone needs to get used to this being the new normal so that's why all workplaces should be reducing the spread and not making excused just because it would slow down production or cost money!.

Uxb1

That's always been my opinion from the start - the virus is now endemic in the world and is not going away - ever.
Even if a country/region or even village could eliminate it completely it will come back in sooner or later by foreign travel both legal and illegal - and mandating that foreign and inter region travel cannot happen from now on is just fantasy land.
Lockdowns could even push the virus toward mutating to and favouring those sub-strains which can survive for the duration of the lockdown - so you need ever more lengthy lockdowns - which are not economically/socially etc feasible anymore than the current ones are.
So there are only 3 solutions: a full sterilising vaccine: we live like this for the forseeable future or until social/economic/law and order collapse occurs, or we go back to living as per normal times and it's survival of the fittest/healthly-ist  - just like what happens anyway in lesser developed regions in the world.

QuackQuackOops

Justiceforme said:

How do do you claim proof of exemption, what does the list include, where do you obtain a lanyard?  Whilst I'm not saying that people with certain health conditions should be forced to wear a mask, there still seems to be lots other people who still refuse to use a mask because they don't want to, nobody likes wearing them.  I don't want to have a flu jab but all folks over aged 50 are advised to have one.   We have a small local One Stop nearby and the majority of shoppers don't think the same rules apply in this situation.   Need to have respect for the folk who have worked non stop throughout the pandemic and continue to so.   They may also have families who deserve protection.

If people dont want to wear a mask, its up to them...noone else.
Less than half a % of people have Coronavirus and of those, 99.7% have no symptoms whatsoever....
I mean, come on...its a non issue!

Yahoo_Mail

MidsHollie said:

It’s not just about deaths though is it. 

For every 100 people that go to ICU that are working at time of illness, only 66 return to work. So 33 will rely on benefits for the rest of their lives and suffer the effects that unwanted unemployment gives. As a young, reasonably healthy female with no known underlying health conditions, I am considered low risk. Getting COVID and dying is of some concern to me. But getting COVID related disability and being unable to work again terrifies me.

The excess deaths that COVID has bought, and the unsupported grief is tragic. But the impact of long term disability as a result of COVID will be felt by individuals, families and the nation as a whole for many years to come. 

The problem is, you're not accounting for the likelihood of being admitted into ICU as a "young" person.  It's incredibly small, most of the people who are in ICU are much much older and frankly, most won't have been working for years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52653192

A few months back, but "Older people with coronavirus dominate admissions to ICU.

By 2 May, there were 25 Covid-19 admissions per 100,000 population for those aged 60 to 69-years-old.

By comparison, there were 3.6 admissions per 100,000 in the 16 to 49-years-old category."

So based on your figures of 1/3 being unable to work again, 1 in 100,000 people in the population aged 16-49 will get COVID, be hospitalised, sent to ICU and then be unable to work again.  I wonder what the statistics are for other illnesses?  Willing to bet most are much higher.  If you're seriously worried about that, It might be best to avoid leaving the house altogether, for the rest of your life.  Although that comes with its own set of risks too...

Aranyani

This second wave does seem to be affecting younger people, more ICU admissions of those in their 40s and 50s.