BEVs deals and information

GreatApe

GreatApe wrote: »

Most cars of all types including BEVs have steep discounts off RRP just Tesla don't

E golf is £31,075 RRP but can be had for £23,144 so yes 25% off RRP
Leaf is £31,500 RRP but can be had for £24,337
Tesla 3 is £39,500 RRP and the price is £39,500

The Tesla is the better car but It's almost twice the price when you add the luxury road tax

Prices need to fall another £3K or rather £6.5k as the government grant will be removed at some point.

Correction the new leaf can be had for as low as £23,037 Which is nearly 27% off RRP
With 150 mile range seems a good deal especially if able to buy via a company and effectively pay for it via pre tax income

GreatApe

JKenH wrote: »

Short extract from an article in yesterday’s Telegraph about Tesla and its rivals.

Succeeding as an automotive start-up is no easy task, and Tesla’s problems exemplify some of the challenges of starting a car manufacturing business from scratch. Sceptics suggest Tesla’s brand could struggle to overcome the quality control and customer service issues that have been raised by even its most slavish devotees in recent months.

Owners have complained of months-long waits for parts and of struggling to contact the brand when they need a service. Paintwork and body-fit issues have also attracted complaints. Bulls are unconcerned, arguing that these are short-term teething problems that Tesla is fixing and which will go away once it has established itself. But some analysts think its problems will only get tougher to address as its customer base grows, and it must also scale its manufacturing as it seeks to become a mass-market car maker.

While I accept an electric motor has a huge life (I have some electric motors at work that have been on 24/7 for almost 15 years!!) A car is much more than its motor

The biggest problems are probably minor dents scratches and body panel replacements

For something like a ford fiesta or focus which there are 1+ million on the UK roads there is a huge quantity of new and used parts that make repalcemen and servicing cheap. Drive into a wall at 5mph in a Tesla and it's Gona cost you and arm and a leg. Do it in a fiesta and go to the local garage and get a replacement at junk yard prices

Also of course every garage works on ICE and they are very competitive
Few garages and mechanics would want to work on BEV tech they just don't have the experience so expect to pay much more when things do go wrong

None of this means BEVs will fail it just means we are in the begining of the first round and we need to get to road 3 before things start settling down

ABrass

The bit that gets me is that EV prices are tumbling as the volumes ramp up. They will at some point be cheaper than ICE vehicles. I don't think anyone is in doubt of that?

So, when you are faced with a situation where you can buy an ICE vehicle or an EV for the same money up front, which would you buy? After all EVs are already competitive or better for total cost of ownership.

And what happens the year after where EVs are now cheaper? At what point is the premium to have an ICE worth it over an EV?

When people debate banning ICE vehicles in 2035 or 2040, why do we think that anyone will really want to pay the extra for them?

JKenH

ABrass wrote: »

The bit that gets me is that EV prices are tumbling as the volumes ramp up. They will at some point be cheaper than ICE vehicles. I don't think anyone is in doubt of that?

So, when you are faced with a situation where you can buy an ICE vehicle or an EV for the same money up front, which would you buy? After all EVs are already competitive or better for total cost of ownership.

And what happens the year after where EVs are now cheaper? At what point is the premium to have an ICE worth it over an EV?

When people debate banning ICE vehicles in 2035 or 2040, why do we think that anyone will really want to pay the extra for them?

The decision, just as now, will depend on individuals personal circumstances and priorities and the charging infrastructure available.

Martyn1981

EricMears wrote: »

Picanto is a Kia model.

Said I needed a lie down - I got the vapors and didn't know where I was, obviously still not over the shock.

I thought BEV's were really expensive till I noticed how much the price of ICE's had gone up.

As ABrass points out, ICE's will die off sooner rather than later, as people start to worry about the cost premium, and the resale value.

I doubt ICE's will make sense for much longer, but again, it's all down to supply, so depends entirely on when the old firm switch over to serious BEV production, as Tesla can't do this all on their own.

ABrass

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/29/volkswagen-plans-to-dominate-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-in-china/

Volkswagen says it plans to build 22 million EVs over the next 8 years, nearly half of which will be made in China. It expects to produce 600,000 EVs a year at those two Chinese factories alone, and will offer 15 electric car models in the Chinese market by 2025

Now that's starting to be the right sort of numbers. Shame Toyota is still stuck on the Hydrogen dead end.

silverwhistle

joefizz wrote: »

Its a view into the mindset.

Yep, there's no denying the distances some go, and having crossed the US by Greyhound back in the day a two hour snooze in your seat still leaves you looking out the window at apparently the same cows or corn field!



I think my point was more not to look at the US, or any car market really as a homogeneous whole. Certainly parts of it will take longer to change. Mind you, the lack of petrol stations may start to hit out West, and if all the motel or RV rest areas start to have charge points that may start to change some peoples' mindset.

I popped into a car dealership last week and saw a Hyundai Picanto at £15k. I had to have a lie down in a dark room, whilst Wifey fanned me with an old Haynes manual.

Well Martyn, it wouldn't have been a Hyundai i20 Haynes manual: they don't do one.:(


I've never had a new car or even bought from a dealer, so I can understand the surprise, but seen plenty of windscreen stickers in passing - "This car only £119 a month..".


For the same reason I've never been bothered about resale value. Whatever happens it's certain that any EV I buy will be my most expensive car ever (but that's not difficult!).

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

The bit that gets me is that EV prices are tumbling as the volumes ramp up. They will at some point be cheaper than ICE vehicles. I don't think anyone is in doubt of that?

I think it's unlikely that a battery powertrain can ever be cheaper than an ICE powertrain when everything is said and done it's 400kg of expensive materials batteries Vs 100kg of mostly cheap steel for an ICE

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

The bit that gets me is that EV prices are tumbling as the volumes ramp up. They will at some point be cheaper than ICE vehicles. I don't think anyone is in doubt of that?

So, when you are faced with a situation where you can buy an ICE vehicle or an EV for the same money up front, which would you buy? After all EVs are already competitive or better for total cost of ownership.

And what happens the year after where EVs are now cheaper? At what point is the premium to have an ICE worth it over an EV?

When people debate banning ICE vehicles in 2035 or 2040, why do we think that anyone will really want to pay the extra for them?

Things don't get cheaper indefinitely as evidence by pretty much everything

A ICE system probably costs less than £1000 to manufacture

As evidence I'd point to a simple generator which is an ICE plus generator plus power electronics which you can buy for £500+VAT

Ford FG7750PE Electric Start Petrol Generator
https://www.generators-direct.co.uk/frame-mounted/ford-fg7750pe-electric-start-petrol-generator?gclid=CjwKCAjwxt_tBRAXEiwAENY8hcGxMwn6A12JIjujC3cfL1wyFbTfXfpBMPfoCY0lk_WcSQ3CIT5jPBoC6msQAvD_BwE

But that's a small generator you cry
Sure I accept that but that's the retail price if you buy one unit
The car manufacturers produce millions of engines they don't buy it off some retail website in units of one

As further evidence I'd point to the fact you can buy a Hyundai i10 £6,500+VAt and that's an ICE plus a whole car so the ICE part is clearly only a fraction of this £6,500 cost oh and that's sold at a profit too


So while I don't have the exact price of an ICE system I think it's fair to guess it's in the ballpark of £1,000

Can batteries and power electronics get to those sorts of figures? No
Or a more simple way of saying all this. No way are 400kg of batteries going to be cheaper than 100kg of steel

JKenH

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/10-best-electric-cars-range-miles-better/

No surprise Tesla take the top 3 slots on vehicle range.