BEVs deals and information

Martyn1981

ABrass wrote: »

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/29/volkswagen-plans-to-dominate-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-in-china/


Now that's starting to be the right sort of numbers. Shame Toyota is still stuck on the Hydrogen dead end.

I do agree with you about Toyota for exports, and hydrogen 'fool' cells do look inferior now, but there may be an argument for them in Japan where they will struggle to generate enough clean leccy.

Japan and Australia have developed (and are still developing) new shipping rules for the transportation of hydrogen (most likely as ammonia). So Australia has a potentially enormous export market to ship 'sunlight' around that part of the World if the storage of clean leccy as hydrogen works out.

Elsewhere, as you say a dead end. The only potential I can see is as a hybrid, removing all the ICE kit, and simply adding a small hydrogen tank and fuel cell, since the rest of the kit in a hydrogen car is simply a small range BEV. But, why go to all that trouble if you can charge at 1000 miles/hr.

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I do agree with you about Toyota for exports, and hydrogen 'fool' cells do look inferior now, but there may be an argument for them in Japan where they will struggle to generate enough clean leccy.

Japan and Australia have developed (and are still developing) new shipping rules for the transportation of hydrogen (most likely as ammonia). So Australia has a potentially enormous export market to ship 'sunlight' around that part of the World if the storage of clean leccy as hydrogen works out.

Elsewhere, as you say a dead end. The only potential I can see is as a hybrid, removing all the ICE kit, and simply adding a small hydrogen tank and fuel cell, since the rest of the kit in a hydrogen car is simply a small range BEV. But, why go to all that trouble if you can charge at 1000 miles/hr.

Youve touched on it there Martyn. Iceland sees hydrogen celled cars as a real possibility because of the amount of renewable and excess renewable energy. They can produce locally at small sites around the place (low car volumes anyway) just using renewables. They plan to move the fishing fleet to hydrogen cells at some point (or at least they did when I was there), so they will have localised fuel generation in the ports (which is most of the country).
Anywhere with excess wind/solar/tidal/nuclear and access to ideally the sea rather than draining aquifers could also produce hydrogen for local use.
Not a nationwide plan but certainly good enough for the likes of Iceland/Norway and anywhere with coastal nuclear plants (would say like Japan but... well we know what happened there).


Mate was telling me the other night about the Tesla 3 turning itself on at night and doing battery management to improve range etc. Anyone familiar with the home battery thread and wants to look can see the same sort of battery management in a pylontech battery bank, it really is very clever and getting better! Im sure the other battery suppliers do the same, you just can see the flashing lights etc.
Whilst I dont expect it to get down to the cell level, I would expect that aspect to continue to improve for a while and if all the sorts of batteries were made more modular and easily replaceable then it is possible to see the life extend dramatically.

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

There have been some recent over the air updates to improve range on the Tesla cars, and also some efficiency improvements in the motors to add range (about 10 miles I believe). So as 'they' see how the cars perform, and the batteries degrade, revisions are possible.

But more important than range I think, is charging. It's easy to point to the scale of the US v's a BEV range, but perhaps mostly pointless too, given that humans also have range issues, be it bladder, belly, or stiff legs.

The latest Tesla supercharger upgrade will allow charging rates of up to 1,000miles per hour for the TM3 (the S & X batts can't charge at that highest speed) so a 10 min stop, aimed at the lower end of the battery, could add around 2.5hrs of highway driving. I really don't see how an ICE could do any better without going to the extreme of swoping drivers and no stops other than fuel.

Those speeds only availability on the long range model 3 which costs £48k+

And only in very low charge states

More realistic is you need 40 mins charge to do 3h of motorway miles

But I think you miss the real need for super chargers
People who don't have drives and can't charge at home
An ICE car can fuel up once-twice a month which is very convenient. While a BEV needs home charging (not available for perhaps 50% of the population who live in flats or houses without drives) and trying to live off super chargers only is still impractical (45 mins charge 1-2 times a week) and also costly

GreatApe

joefizz wrote: »

Youve touched on it there Martyn. Iceland sees hydrogen celled cars as a real possibility because of the amount of renewable and excess renewable energy.

Just because you have a potential excess of something doesn't make it viable or even valuable
Nuclear is more or less limitless and can power the world but it's now seen as a dead end
It's almost all about cost not what's possibly available

almillar

But I think you miss the real need for super chargers

I think you've completely forgotten about the existence of destination chargers.

ABrass

It's a topic for another thread but a cheap but potentially inefficient way to generate and store hydrogen, or better yet methane, could be a benefit to the grid and to RE generators.

With that combination you could use it as a load shedding solution when needed and drop it when the power is better used on the grid. My idea is that you need to reduce the cost to build to the point where you can still make money even with low COP. Then feed the output into an existing flexible market like the gas grid.

Martyn1981

almillar wrote: »

I think you've completely forgotten about the existence of destination chargers.

Don't know who said that, nor the context, but as you point out there different chargers for different situations and solutions. People seem a bit confused by the lack of superchargers in cities etc, when that's not their role at all. Or as you say, forget about destination chargers completely.

All in I think Tesla have somewhere around 50k rapid chargers now.

Martyn1981

joefizz wrote: »

Youve touched on it there Martyn. Iceland sees hydrogen celled cars as a real possibility because of the amount of renewable and excess renewable energy. They can produce locally at small sites around the place (low car volumes anyway) just using renewables. They plan to move the fishing fleet to hydrogen cells at some point (or at least they did when I was there), so they will have localised fuel generation in the ports (which is most of the country).
Anywhere with excess wind/solar/tidal/nuclear and access to ideally the sea rather than draining aquifers could also produce hydrogen for local use.
Not a nationwide plan but certainly good enough for the likes of Iceland/Norway and anywhere with coastal nuclear plants (would say like Japan but... well we know what happened there).

Yes, but. There's always a but isn't there. H2 makes sense in Japan because they'll struggle to produce enough clean leccy, but there's a nearby neighbour with unlimited potential (Aus).

In the case of Iceland and Norway, you've kinda hit upon two countries who pretty much also have unlimited RE leccy potential, with vast untapped geothermal (Iceland) and hydro (Norway). I think Norway has identified an additional easy(ish) 20GW of hydro gen if Europe was to want it, and that's before PHS (pumped hydro storage) potential.

So for those countries BEV's make great sense since FC's consume so, so much more leccy per mile when all the losses are taken into account. If I recall, Iceland did/does have a fleet of H2 buses(?) so clearly it's all possible, but I suspect BEV's may now be a better choice.

What H2 offers is a really compact form of energy storage and is almost certain to be rolled out in some shape or form to provide national storage beyond intra-day needs (batteries).

ABrass mentions methane, and this is another great storage solution, especially if formed using H2 from excess RE, and CO2 from carbon capture.

To oversimplify, (edit - for the UK) to reach 100% RE leccy, we will need around 500GWh of intra-day storage (possibly V2G), but also have to accept a significant amount of waste/spill/curtailment of excess RE gen at times. But if we can store some of that excess medium to long term, and use it to meet demand peaks, then we'll need less RE capacity, and have less spill, so a self correcting solution, and one that will establish minimum and maximum prices too for leccy, since storage will start to buy as prices get very low, and storage will sell energy back when prices get too high.

In theory.


Oops! Meant to include this recent news article about Iceland.

112 Charging Stations to Be Installed Around Iceland

Martyn1981

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I popped into a car dealership last week and saw a Hyundai Picanto at £15k. I had to have a lie down in a dark room, whilst Wifey fanned me with an old Haynes manual.

I may have had a breakdown with some more shopping today! I spotted a Vauxhall Rio for £20k, and a Toyota Ceed for £29k. Has the World gone mad? Yes the Ceed was a turbo model, with go faster colouring, but that doesn't work, or at least it didn't improve the performance of my first car, and that had the infamous 'Screaming Chicken' across the hood, and about 100m of gold trim.

Mad I say, mad, the whole World has gone mad.

Martyn1981

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The latest Tesla supercharger upgrade will allow charging rates of up to 1,000miles per hour for the TM3 (the S & X batts can't charge at that highest speed) so a 10 min stop, aimed at the lower end of the battery, could add around 2.5hrs of highway driving. I really don't see how an ICE could do any better without going to the extreme of swoping drivers and no stops other than fuel.

Timely article, but a bit confusing, possibly misleading:

Electric cars could be charged in 10 minutes in future, finds research

New battery technology could give electric cars more than 200 miles of charge in as little as 10 minutes, according to new research.

A Tesla Model S currently takes 40 minutes to charge from a flat battery to 80% using a supercharger.

But, but, but, the TM3 at a V3 supercharger, and I accept that these are only now being rolled out or upgraded, can already add 200 miles in 10 mins, or TBF a long range TM3 can, if the battery is depleted enough.

The comparison to a TMS is a bit cheeky, since they have an older battery tech, and that 80% figure is much more than 200 miles, so the article has mixed together a number of terms/comparisons.


But, all my waffle aside, faster charging battery technology is of course a good thing.