Will Brexit happen?

phillw

Blue_Doggy wrote: »

I must disagree about the value of agricultural land for housing development.

exactly

https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/how-to-get-planning-permission-for-building-on-greenbelt-land-in-the-uk/

In the following, we will examine Green Belt planning loopholes, evaluate development opportunities, discuss why we should build on the Green Belt and explain how you can get planning permission to build on green belt land in the UK.

Malthusian

phillw wrote: »

Only an arrogant person would twist what I said.

I didn't twist anything you said. You said if you're self-employed you're not working-class, your own words, which is trivially proven wrong by obvious counter-examples. I substituted "middle-class" for "not working class" because the idea that if a working class person becomes a self-employed taxi driver they're now a toff is even dafter.

I didn't say that only middle class are allowed to be self employed, only that the class system is too limited in scope to cope with the way workers have evolved.

It's not supposed to. The class system is a system of tribal identities which are inherited from parent to child, and only incorrectly correlated with what you do for work.

Even when the labour market was less flexible and jobs were more strongly correlated with class, this was still the case. An 18th century toff who went bankrupt didn't become working class.

The gig economy means you can be driving a taxi, delivery fast food and own your own consulting company.

And if you do all of those things while thinking of yourself as working class and displaying stereotypical behaviour which causes others to perceive you as working class (accent, wearing a flat cap, eating at Greggs, etc) then you're working class.

Green_Bear

Malthusian wrote: »

Most agricultural land is worthless for building on. Very few people want to live in the middle of nowhere surrounded by the smell of slurry. Land that would be good for housing if you can get planning permission is already being bought cheap.

If the consequence of Brexit is that farms are taken over by big businesses and continue to farm, then that's a shame for the small farmers that get driven out of their business, but it merely continues a process that has been going on for decades. A big agricultural company producing the same food that a small one used to will not cause the famine that Remainers are hoping and prepping for.

So an "honest" government would have inflicted recession, mass unemployment, a stockmarket crash, unnecessary tax rises and genuine swingeing cuts to public services on its population.

I have to agree with the "getting more surreal" thing.

That may be true in other countries - but not in the UK.
The UK is a small country and apart from the Scottish Highlands, nowhere is really that isolated, when compared to the USA etc.
Homes in the countryside sell for high prices - just look online.
Agricultural land is also much cheaper to build on than former industrial sites, as there is no need to clear the land of rubble and contamination.

What we do have in the UK is a shift in housing demand towards the SE of England.
There are whole housing estates in Scotland and Northern England that are being demolished and grassed over. These are post WW2 housing estates with relatively modern buildings.

phillw

Malthusian wrote: »

I didn't twist anything you said. You said if you're self-employed you're not working-class, your own words, which is trivially proven wrong by obvious counter-examples. I substituted "middle-class" for "not working class" because the idea that if a working class person becomes a self-employed taxi driver they're now a toff is even dafter.

You are arrogant to assume that the opposite of working class is a toff. The term often used is petite bourgeoisie, or lower middle class.
Your argument is deranged.

Green_Bear

Malthusian wrote: »

I didn't twist anything you said. You said if you're self-employed you're not working-class, your own words, which is trivially proven wrong by obvious counter-examples. I substituted "middle-class" for "not working class" because the idea that if a working class person becomes a self-employed taxi driver they're now a toff is even dafter.

It's not supposed to. The class system is a system of tribal identities which are inherited from parent to child, and only incorrectly correlated with what you do for work.

Even when the labour market was less flexible and jobs were more strongly correlated with class, this was still the case. An 18th century toff who went bankrupt didn't become working class.

And if you do all of those things while thinking of yourself as working class and displaying stereotypical behaviour which causes others to perceive you as working class (accent, wearing a flat cap, eating at Greggs, etc) then you're working class.

You are correct in many ways - but what you describe is mostly a British culture of 'class'.
If you go to continental Europe, it is more about money, rather than ancestry.

Maybe it's because Britain never had a revolution and a period of communism, like Poland for example?

In Northern Ireland, religion is their version of British 'class'. It would be easier for a rich protestant to marry a poor protestant than a rich catholic. In Britain it would be the other way around.

phillw

Malthusian wrote: »

And if you do all of those things while thinking of yourself as working class and displaying stereotypical behaviour which causes others to perceive you as working class (accent, wearing a flat cap, eating at Greggs, etc) then you're working class.

I thought we'd moved beyond such stereotypical prejudice by now.

You can wear what you want, speak how you want, eat what you want and that doesn't define your "class".

Collins defines it as The working class or the working classes are the group of people in a society who do not own much property, who have low social status, and who do jobs which involve using physical skills rather than intellectual skills.

Karl Marx defined the working class or proletariat as individuals who sell their labour power for wages and who do not own the means of production.

Cambridge defines it as a social group that consists of people who earn little money, often being paid only for the hours or days that they work, and who usually do physical work:

Nothing about flat caps, accents or eating at greggs. Which seems to mostly be a lazy stereotype of northerners (you don't need to be northern or working class to eat food from greggs).

Green_Bear

phillw wrote: »

I thought we'd moved beyond such stereotypical prejudice by now.

You can wear what you want, speak how you want, eat what you want and that doesn't define your "class".

I don't think there is one official definition of class.
I would describe Upper Class as having the ability to live purely off asset income, from birth.
ie never needing to sell your intellectual or physical labour.

Blue_Doggy

AndyCF wrote: »

Thanks to the above posters for providing answers re: my farming / picking fruits/veg queries, appreciated. As I say it was a 100% honest and genuine question I just was not really sure how to of phrased it so it read like that.

I think regardless of the "outcome" for Brexit, once a few months have passed by the 'farm workers' issue will be settled one way or another in that they will be able to get workers. I think only those who are actually terribly unscrupulous or paying them £3/hour ( ! ) will likely have any real issues with this.

Whether farmers and growers will be able to get workers after Brexit will depend on the number of work visas/permits the government will make available: at present they are saying there will be only 2000 permits available for workers earning less than £30,000. This will include not only agriculture but also health care, care homes, and construction industry workers. Agriculture alone requires tens of thousands.

In the 1950s and 60s, seasonal agricultural work was often done by the wives and even children of farmworkers living on or near the farms. These days there are fewer farmworkers, and wives have their own careers.

There are many reasons why local people don’t do the work, not least that often the workers are housed on the farm in accommodation suitable for single people (not families). People on benefits would have to restart the benefit application process at the end of the season.

Although the wages are higher than most Eastern European people can earn in their own countries, they are low by UK norms and won’t be enough to live on for a year without finding another job.

lisyloo

Green_Bear wrote: »

I don't think there is one official definition of class.
I would describe Upper Class as having the ability to live purely off asset income, from birth.
ie never needing to sell your intellectual or physical labour.

The royals need to work so that doesn’t stack up.

Sailtheworld

Conina wrote: »

I think that by now it's pretty obvious not only who the "fixated" one is but also what your motives are since yet again you describe me with certainty but without knowing me meaning that - yet again and as usual for you - you are wronger than a very wrong wrong thing and on so many counts and levels.

Maybe when you report those MPs for treason at the local police station you could ask if there's a crime of making an assertion.

Good to hear you didn't dismiss the government brexit leaflet out of hand before it even arrived. Most brexiteers did - the idea that they realised bad things would happen and considered staying would be worse is a later construct. Nothing more than a transparent attempt to cut off the argument that there should be another referendum because so many things that weren't known then are known now.

Can't see the issue. How many times did Theresa May put the WA before parliament in case people changed their minds based on new information. Even Boris Johnson gave MPs two chances to agree to an election. They'll both be voted on again in a few weeks.