Mobile Affiliates (CoolNewMobile+PhoneBoxDirect+Phones2YourDoor) in Administration

elljay20

mobilejunkie wrote: »

I have to agree with you more than not, elljay20. It's not actually inconsistent from my views on Vodafone's generosity. From the other side of the fence, however, the networks are sometimes a complete pain to deal with at other times (not always) and people only see the network - not the dealer. That doesn't make it right at all, but many people (like me) who wouldn't even take out a contract without these deals would never get a phone. You could argue that if people are "normal" (I would say foolish and will probably get shot down for that by some!) to walk into a shop and sign up to an expensive deal to save the hassle and worry then that's fine. No-one on the cashback deals - even IF they are with Vodafone and IF they get the £5 deal - will receive what they thought they would. They aren't better off - although may end up better off than those in the high street, I accept. I am very impressed by Vodafone's response - and unimpressed by the other networks in this. Different customers DO get treated differently by the same organisation ALL the time though. Had Vodafone not helped as they did I would be a lot worse off - and am still substantially worse off. Then again, we haven't done anything wrong.

When I take out a contract I don't expect a network to bail me out. They do, however, make a lot of money from these dealers in the normal course of events and in some ways (morally rather than technically) the dealers are acting as their agents. You are signed up to a network contract which you don't even see at the time and a lot of it is based on trust. Many people did have complete and successful cashback deals with Mobile Affiliates previously. Presumably then only the dealer suffered - but probably for much of that time was compensated by those who got the cashback terms wrong and failed in their claims. I've always said most cashback claims HAVE to fail - and do - to make these offers work and no-one should go blindly into them. However, I detest the "nanny state" which increasingly intereferes in everything which moves or breathes and no doubt banning cashback deals will merely create other (as yet unforseen) problems. I also am suspicious about the way that virtually ALL cashback dealers started having problems paying claims at the same time - coincidentally at the start of the financial year. My suspicion is (somewhat confirmed by the owner of Chatterbox and other comments I've come across) that the networks started reducing and even witholding commissions. It would make sense with this becomming an (apparently) general problem at that time.

I think Vodafone have been marvellous - and I'm not totally convinced the non-cashback retail customers wouldn't, in fact, be TOO upset at the rescue deals. I agree with you - and have ALWAYS said - the networks have no real responsibility to bail anyone out (despite what many others think). I regard it is a wonderful gesture and ny esteem for them as a network and organisation has grown enormously as a result. Like all terms which differ between customers with the same product, they are gaining a lot of goodwill (hopefully) from many people who they have helped or offered special deals to.

You have made me think though! You make a convinving argument. I hadn't thought abou thet "normal" customers. On the other hand - do you really think they care that much about this?

You started by saying you were merely playing "devil's advocate" - but are you actually saying Vodafone etc. should not be doing this? Or that cashback deals shouldn't be allowed? I can't agree with those last two - despite your reasoned argument.

i think that if i was a voda customer i would be on the phone right now playing hell. i know i seem to contradict myself, i'm just torn between sympathy for those who've been affected and people who have bought elsewhere and have dire circumstances who wouldn't be offered this deal because they didn't buy on a failed cashback scheme.

in all honesty i would love to see cashback banned because it can't be regulated properly. don't get me wrong, i do cashback, but in a more reasonable form that ensures my store is profitable and the customer gets a cheaper deal and still has free reign over their tarriff etc, but these deals where the commissions just don't add up, that are designed to rip people off really wind me up. offering something and making it almost impossible to deliver is just wrong and leaves more vunerable people to get ripped off.
if it could be regulated so that it's feasable then yes, cashback deals would be great, but it can't be.

Big_Dreams_2

elljay20 wrote: »

i think that if i was a voda customer i would be on the phone right now playing hell. i know i seem to contradict myself, i'm just torn between sympathy for those who've been affected and people who have bought elsewhere and have dire circumstances who wouldn't be offered this deal because they didn't buy on a failed cashback scheme.

in all honesty i would love to see cashback banned because it can't be regulated properly. don't get me wrong, i do cashback, but in a more reasonable form that ensures my store is profitable and the customer gets a cheaper deal and still has free reign over their tarriff etc, but these deals where the commissions just don't add up, that are designed to rip people off really wind me up. offering something and making it almost impossible to deliver is just wrong and leaves more vunerable people to get ripped off.
if it could be regulated so that it's feasable then yes, cashback deals would be great, but it can't be.

I completely understand you points raised. When I realised what had happened I wasn't surprised and kicked myself for doing the cashback scheme in the first place. I sat and thought for 5 mins and decided to call Vodafone simply to ask what would happen to my account. I certainly wasn't expecting any tea and sympathy I just asked how my account would be dealt with in the future. It was then that the lady asked for my contact number and said she would pass my details on to their special department and get someone to call me back. I then googled CNM and came across this site. On Monday evening I received the promised call back and was offered a fantastic deal, I didn't haggle in any way, it was just offered to me. I was quite taken aback and thanked the guy very much and said how much I appreciated their help.

Thats the way we should all be dealing with this, we took on the chance of cashback but everyone in their right mind should have thought about the consequences of it all going belly up. It really isn't the airtime suppliers responsibility to help us but at the same time I am extremely grateful for their assistance. Its not free and is costing me a total of £180 but at the same time I can hardly be angry because I knew the risks - as did everyone who took on the deals

coal32

after reading this thread....i think Vodafone will enhance their rep cause they seem to be trying to help their customers. Given that most people don't choose between having a mobile or not but only between which network to go with, I think Vodafone's approach matters.

I'm with T-mobile and they're only offering £5 discount cause their new flex tariff is reduced by £5 anyway.

I can't agree with guys saying the networks are in way to blame. If you run a business where people sell your stuff on your behalf then you MUST have some obligation to ensure that that person is operating in an acceptable manner.

In terms of getting a better response from T-mobile I might talk to them about Vodafone's approach.

elljay20

coal32 wrote: »

after reading this thread....i think Vodafone will enhance their rep cause they seem to be trying to help their customers. Given that most people don't choose between having a mobile or not but only between which network to go with, I think Vodafone's approach matters.

I'm with T-mobile and they're only offering £5 discount cause their new flex tariff is reduced by £5 anyway.

I can't agree with guys saying the networks are in way to blame. If you run a business where people sell your stuff on your behalf then you MUST have some obligation to ensure that that person is operating in an acceptable manner.

In terms of getting a better response from T-mobile I might talk to them about Vodafone's approach.

don't you mean they're trying to help cool new mobiles customers:rolleyes:

ticobassie

Just wanted to go into the area of whether it is fair for networks to claim that they are not responsible whatsoever.

I'm not sure if any of you saw Despatches on Channel4 this week? It was about dubious past and current activities of the brand Coca Cola. One item is child labour. Each bottle of 240 ml. coke requires 8-9 teaspoons of sugar. That's where the sugarcane plantations come in and often the labourers who harvest the sugarcane are being helped by kids. The kids are not forced to work, they do it because they want to make some cash.

Now Coca Cola maintain that they are not responsible for children that work to harvest sugarcane. Their Guiding Principles for Suppliers reads, "Supplier will not use child labor as defined by local law," yet these principles do not extend one more step of the supply chain to apply to their suppliers' supplier of materials.
http://www.naturalmatters.net/article.asp?article=1301&cat=219

Even though they are hiding behind these guidelines Human Rights organisations exert a lot of pressure on Coca Cola to extend their ethical code further down the chain.

I can't see why this situation is different. The networks that sell contracts to 3rd party agents know that in this construction they are not taking any risk. The only losers are either the 3rd party agents and given that cockroach companies like CNM will dodge when the customers get too smart, then the risk is simply passed on to the customer. Now, just like it would be strange for the children who harvest the sugar cane to complain about Coca Cola's policy, so is it for us, who have taken the risk, to demand that the networks take the responsibility, now that the gamble has proven to be wrong.

However, just as it is right for the Human Rights organisations to keep the pressure on Coca Cola to adhere the suppliers of their suppliers to a non-child labour policy so is it for groups like Watchdog, Ofcom to demand from the networks that they stop selling contracts to cash-back agents.

groomoid

Hi just thought I would say a big thank you to this forum and Vodafone
Like many I have lost out but i rang Vodafone tonight and spoke to a very helpful lady who stated that the CNM fiasco could now be resolved by the customer service staff and didnt need referring to the other dept. She was authorised to reduce my two £35 plans to £17.50 each. I asked politely if that was the best they could offer as I was seriously out of pocket and I knew others were getting the same plan for less. She spoke to her supervisor who authorised the two plans for £5 per month each for the remaining 3 months. This will save me a further £180 so thanks to all on this forum and thank you vodafone. Be polite and I am sure you will get what you want

elljay20

ticobassie wrote: »

Just wanted to go into the area of whether it is fair for networks to claim that they are not responsible whatsoever.

I'm not sure if any of you saw Despatches on Channel4 this week? It was about dubious past and current activities of the brand Coca Cola. One item is child labour. Each bottle of 240 ml. coke requires 8-9 teaspoons of sugar. That's where the sugarcane plantations come in and often the labourers who harvest the sugarcane are being helped by kids. The kids are not forced to work, they do it because they want to make some cash.

Now Coca Cola maintain that they are not responsible for children that work to harvest sugarcane. Their Guiding Principles for Suppliers reads, "Supplier will not use child labor as defined by local law," yet these principles do not extend one more step of the supply chain to apply to their suppliers' supplier of materials.
http://www.naturalmatters.net/article.asp?article=1301&cat=219

Even though they are hiding behind these guidelines Human Rights organisations exert a lot of pressure on Coca Cola to extend their ethical code further down the chain.

I can't see why this situation is different. The networks that sell contracts to 3rd party agents know that in this construction they are not taking any risk. The only losers are either the 3rd party agents and given that cockroach companies like CNM will dodge when the customers get too smart, then the risk is simply passed on to the customer. Now, just like it would be strange for the children who harvest the sugar cane to complain about Coca Cola's policy, so is it for us, who have taken the risk, to demand that the networks take the responsibility, now that the gamble has proven to be wrong.

However, just as it is right for the Human Rights organisations to keep the pressure on Coca Cola to adhere the suppliers of their suppliers to a non-child labour policy so is it for groups like Watchdog, Ofcom to demand from the networks that they stop selling contracts to cash-back agents.

sorry, but it's a completely different senario. the contract for cashback is with cool new mobile, not the network

mobilejunkie

Not sure I can equate the likes of me to child labour either! I was getting a lot more than they ever would and had a choice - neither of which apply in that case!

I did think, elljay20, that you might operate a different type of dealership yourself. I can see your point of view and it is refreshing that the discussion on this thread has been quite intelligent and sensible - as well as practically helpful and thought-provoking!

elljay20

mobilejunkie wrote: »

Not sure I can equate the likes of me to child labour either! I was getting a lot more than they ever would and had a choice - neither of which apply in that case!

I did think, elljay20, that you might operate a different type of dealership yourself. I can see your point of view and it is refreshing that the discussion on this thread has been quite intelligent and sensible - as well as practically helpful and thought-provoking!

the cash back we do is upfront, like straight onto your card, so a hunderd hundred and fifty quid upfront or potentialy nothing? it's a good deal for a lot of people because it means they can still lower their tariffs etc without voiding any cash back deals, and they have it there and then 100% guarenteed :-)

mobilejunkie

Seems fair and the fact it's straightforward and customers can't lose will be very attractive to a lot of people.

It is a fair and clear deal and I hope it enables you to compete with the big boys.

Cashback deals appeal to peoples' baser instincts - the chance of getting something for nothing. I got drawn into this by the attraction of having a mobile phone free - and a good one - plus all the free air time. Then came Easy Mobile - with tons of free credit on PAYT sims. I studied the cashback deals and dealers - and sites like this - thoroughly for about a year before I took the plunge. I got my first contract in July, 2006; I waited for the ideal phone on a totally free deal which I fully understood - and with a company most unlikely to go bust. In September of that year I got three more; then I got another for a good friend in July and one for my sister in October. After that I just kept going. We've all had all our cashbacks until this time. I'm extremely good at this. I had to write my first LBA (or rather my legal representatives did) to Mobile Affiliates in mid-October and I got three cheques two weeks later - and two weeks before they went down. I therefore lost 30% on two contracts - and a friend I took to them lost all of theirs. However, I would never have taken anyone else there unless they knew the risks and the deal they wanted wasnt around at the right place at the right time. They are content and so am I - Vodafone has made a huge difference to me and I am doing my best for my friend too. I thank them for that - but already got another cashback deal this week. It's not actually doing you out of business - I actually wouldn't have a contract if I didn't get them free. My friends and family (all but two of whom would never have had a single contract either) have also saved a fortune and come back for more - after their initial success. None of them would touch a cashback deal if i wasn't looking after them throughout - and I constantly advise others not to on here unless they really know what they're doing. In fact, I am aware that by helping some others on here I am damaging my/our own interests in a small way. It is obvious - and I have explained much of this on a thread I started writing about three months ago to try to help people and prevent them from making the constant errors which people do make still - that most people will lose out. I still like my summation; it's a game with real money (yours) and a stacked deck (theirs).

When I went with Mobile Affiliates initially it was to branch out for a better deal from a riskier source. I do agree with you more than I care to admit! Even so; I enjoy the game, I'm very good at it and do try to help a few others to play. I have found many unexpected benefits by having so many phones. I used to be able to use O2 for my 08 numbers; I can still use them for free picture messages; I had some opportune free trials on mobile internet with Orange; I never use my landline now for paid calls; I can even send pictures to my email address. Vodafone has Stop-The-Clock (wonderful after my first O2 contract was 1,000 off-peak minutes and the rest had far less anytime minutes). I have done unbelievably well and so no, I don't want to see cashback deals banned. Maybe that makes me immoral in one sense; I have got all these benfits on the backs of all htose who didn't get their cashbacks (for other reasons than this instance!). However, I might argue that the reason for my success is the time, care, investigation, research and thought I put into all - so why should I feel guilty about those who do none of those things or lose out because they don't and these things get banned?

Ultimately, you cannot protect people form themselves constantly - it often backfires in unexpected ways and takes away the freedom of choice I would like to enjoy.

From your point of view it's obviously entirely possible to sell plenty of contracts in the more expected way - as you do. In fact, I know how difficult I is to actually persuade most people into one of these deals in the first place! Maybe it's easier if you have a website full of free goodies making (often) false promises and making it sound so simple. I very much doubt normal dealers will have a lack of customers in an expanding industry with new models and technology coming on-stream constantly, though I realise it must anger dealers like yourself to see what the cashback dealers get up to. I dislike dishonesty but unfortunatley there is virtually no organisation nowadays that isn't (except for the odd small company like yours of course!). Perhaps that is also why I find Vodafone's response - and the SPEED of it - so refreshing as well. Maybe "honest" isn't the best word - but trying to help it's customers (which it pays a lot to get in the first place) is also a very rare commodity nowadays.