Yellow Box Junction - PCN Advice sought

Aylesbury_Duck

neilmcl wrote: »

"Clutching at straws" spring to mind. Even faced with the video evidence that clearly shows him entering the box before the other car made it clear and I'm sorry but anyone could see that it wasn't clear, he's still trying to blame it on anything else but his own poor driving.

I agree. The car in front is already braking as it enters the box and is nowhere near the exit when OP enters. The blame sits squarely with the OP and the weird positioning of the other driver is immaterial. The offence was as good as committed when he entered the box whilst the car in front was still in it and the queue ahead was visible. There looks like there might even have been room for OP to squeeze into the space to the left of the car in front.

Morally, the OP is banged to rights. Technically he may get away with it.

Cornucopia

facade wrote: »

If you get it wrong and come to a stop on the yellow grid, you get a ticket. Some junctions make an absolute fortune for local councils.

It just seems rather unfair.

Fortunately, there's only one Box Junction in my town, and I rarely use it. I don't think other roadusers would take kindly to me waiting for the entire junction to clear before proceeding.

photome

Aylesbury_Duck wrote: »

I agree. The car in front is already braking as it enters the box and is nowhere near the exit when OP enters. The blame sits squarely with the OP and the weird positioning of the other driver is immaterial. The offence was as good as committed when he entered the box whilst the car in front was still in it and the queue ahead was visible. There looks like there might even have been room for OP to squeeze into the space to the left of the car in front.

Morally, the OP is banged to rights. Technically he may get away with it.

think that sums it up, hoepfully he will keep here or pepipoo updated

Aylesbury_Duck

Cornucopia wrote: »

It just seems rather unfair.

Fortunately, there's only one Box Junction in my town, and I rarely use it. I don't think other roadusers would take kindly to me waiting for the entire junction to clear before proceeding.

I disagree with your first point. The whole point of these boxes is to keep things moving and stop selfish or inattentive drivers from impeding others because of their overriding need to fill a gap in front. If people understood how boxes work (and there is no excuse for not understanding) and used them correctly, there wouldn't be a need to impose fines for their misuse.

As to your second point, I agree that other roadusers (behind you) would not take kindly to you waiting for the entire junction to clear before proceeding, but that's their lookout. Turning the argument around, would you take kindly to receiving a fine to keep drivers behind you happy? And in keeping those behind you happy, you're probably not endearing yourself to those in the queues on the side roads who can't move anywhere because you're blocking their otherwise clear path.

facade

Aylesbury_Duck wrote: »

And in keeping those behind you happy, you're probably not endearing yourself to those in the queues on the side roads who can't move anywhere because you're blocking their otherwise clear path.

What usually happens is the junctions are "designed:rotfl:" so that 50 cars can turn onto the Ring Road from the junction to the left and back up right to the box, blocking the exits for straight on traffic, and the Ring Road lights are "sequenced :rotfl:" so the very instant that the queue on the opposite side of the junction starts to move the Ring Road lights go red.

So you get to sit through half a dozen light changes unable to move forwards, watching any space that appears while you are stopped get filled by traffic from the side junction.

Aylesbury_Duck

facade wrote: »

What usually happens is the junctions are "designed:rotfl:" so that 50 cars can turn onto the Ring Road from the junction to the left and back up right to the box, blocking the exits for straight on traffic, and the Ring Road lights are "sequenced :rotfl:" so the very instant that the queue on the opposite side of the junction starts to move the Ring Road lights go red.

So you get to sit through half a dozen light changes unable to move forwards, watching any space that appears while you are stopped get filled by traffic from the side junction.

Yep. We've got similar "intelligent" traffic light sets in my part of Kent. They seem to work almost entirely the wrong way around and seem to maximise queueing in all directions. The roundabouts they replaced two years ago didn't create anywhere near as much congestion. The air quality for the residents on that stretch of road is appalling as a result of the constantly queuing traffic.

facade

Aylesbury_Duck wrote: »

Yep. We've got similar "intelligent" traffic light sets in my part of Kent. They seem to work almost entirely the wrong way around and seem to maximise queueing in all directions.

Yes it seems that the priority is to get traffic onto the ring road, rather than to have traffic moving around the ring road.

The other thing that the "designers" are good at round here is lane swapping. The common sense route is always wrong, as the road markings are like those old Scalectric cross-over tracks. If you are not a local, you have absolutely no chance of getting to an exit that you want, if you blink you find what was the straight ahead lane 15 yards ago is now a turning right lane surrounded by kerbs both sides.
It is compounded by locals getting in the lane that they know goes straight where they want many yards before the crazy lane markings order a 90 degree left turn across 4 lanes of traffic that are adamant they are going straight on

facade

Aylesbury_Duck wrote: »

The roundabouts they replaced two years ago didn't create anywhere near as much congestion.

Roundabouts are supposed to slow traffic flow, but in the rush hour the main streams of traffic hurtle past unimpeded as no-one can ever get out of an entrance/exit from their right, so no-one can ever join the ring road, the exact opposite situation to that created by the traffic lights. :mad:

rosturra

This thread's been busy!
In my defense, the road leading to the box junction has two lanes. I am not familiar with the area and my assumption - and I accept this was wrong - was that two lanes continued after the junction. Hence I was not expecting the traffic to stop and merge.
My fault - but I believe an understandable mistake. There were no signs or markings prior to the junction to indicate the loss of a lane and a need to merge.
I actually had room to clear the box junction as there was room to the left, but the car braking in front of me surprised me so much that I instinctively braked to a stop.
To those to say I was bang to rights. Well yes. But I challenge you to honestly say you always wait for the preceding car to clear a box junction when traffic is apparently flowing!
I don't think I drove inconsiderately; No intention was meant to cause an obstruction, and none was actually caused.
I absolutely agree that some people who abuse box junctions are vile creatures. This is usually in the rush hour when there is a traffic jam, and cars go on the junction with no hope of getting across and leave other cars with nowhere to go when their lights go green. I hope you can see this was not my action. I made a misjudgment and was caught in no man's land.
I have been researching other cases, and the fact that two lanes went into one IS a consideration for appeal. As another successful case was similar but with a bus lane causing the squeeze.
So I hope that you don't think it is unreasonable that I give an appeal a go. No harm in trying. We are, after all, all here on this forum to save money! Similarly, when I noticed the location error, I couldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Would you have done otherwise?
As it turns out the good folk at pepipoo have informed me that my penalty notice had some errors in it too. The deadlines are wrong.
Whilst I may have got lucky in this helping my appeal on a technicality, you shouldn't feel any sympathy for the council. Those same errors may have caused worry and concern to other poor punters for no reason. There's no excuse for careless admin errors when you get a scary legal notice.
I'll keep this thread up to date.

unholyangel

DoaM wrote: »

It seems the OP was actually in the wrong, but may have a way out on a technicality.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114766

OP's actually scaring me with some of the stuff he's said there.

Such as claiming the car in the front strayed to the right giving OP impression there were 2 lanes. Despite the video clearly showing the car in front had barely crossed the halfway point of the box junction at the time OP entered (and obviously he should have been slowing down/ready to stop so the car would have been even further back at the point OP should have started braking).

He also claims the car in front braked unexpectedly (really, there was a queue of traffic and yet him braking is unexpected?) which resulted in OP taking "emergency action" to brake immediately and "safely" (if you need to take "emergency action" to avoid colliding with the car in front, you're either not following at a safe distance or weren't paying attention).

And of course, his claim that it was car A that made him commit the offence - because obviously the driver of car A had control over OP's car and caused him to enter the box when his exit wasn't yet clear.

And the claim he could have got in behind car B so he wouldn't have to stop completely in the box junction - despite the offence being committed if any part of your car stops in the junction and seemingly oblivious to car A pulling over to the right to avoid stopping in the box junction because there wasn't enough room behind car B to clear the box completely.


Box junctions are simple. You don't enter them unless you're sure there is enough room at the other side for your car to completely clear the box.

Sorry OP I know you're likely just desperate to avoid this so are straw clutching, but some of the things you've said are not doing you any favours.