Yellow Box Junction - PCN Advice sought

Cornucopia

unholyangel wrote: »

The offence is committed if any part of your vehicle is within the box.

Is there a definition somewhere of what constitutes the offence? Someone has already mentioned the issue of councils fining people for stopping in the box when that isn't the offence.

Its not enough to just get your front tyres over - you need to be able to clear the box completely.

I would do it on a "better than nothing" basis, hoping that it would make me less of a target for a fine.

Car_54

Cornucopia wrote: »

Is there a definition somewhere of what constitutes the offence? Someone has already mentioned the issue of councils fining people for stopping in the box when that isn't the offence.


I would do it on a "better than nothing" basis, hoping that it would make me less of a target for a fine.

The offence IS stopping. More precisely "to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles".

Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, schedule 19, part II, section 7.

Cornucopia

Car_54 wrote: »

The offence IS stopping. More precisely "to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles".

Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, schedule 19, part II, section 7.

Thanks for that. It does make me wonder why the Highway Code chooses to express it differently, though. The legislation is clearer and much more specific.

Altarf

Cornucopia wrote: »

I still maintain that the vast majority of people in the vast majority of instances do not use Box Junctions in the manner suggested by the wording of the law. If they did, there would be traffic chaos - each vehicle queuing at the entry to the box, waiting to have exclusive use of the entire box and a suitable exit. Multi-lane Yellow Boxes would become impossible to use, as you could never be sure whether the car next to you would swap lanes in-transit and steal your exit.

The majority may not, but I do.

Until I can see a length of tarmac long enough to put my car in on the other side of the box I am not driving into it.

And for the people behind me; tough.

Cornucopia

Altarf wrote: »

The majority may not, but I do.

Until I can see a length of tarmac long enough to put my car in on the other side of the box I am not driving into it.

And for the people behind me; tough.

The whole thing is now complicated by the fact that Car 54 has kindly dug out the relevant legislation, and it says something different to the highway code.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that the wording of the legislation is how people generally use box junctions, and the wording of the Highway Code is not.

unholyangel

Car_54 wrote: »

The offence IS stopping. More precisely "to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles".

Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, schedule 19, part II, section 7.

The offence isn't stopping - the legislation doesn't say anything like "you shall not stop in a box junction" its "you shall not cause the vehicle to enter a box junction where you will have to stop".

I appreciate its a subtle difference though.

If (for example) you entered the box at a time your exit was clear and something subsequently happened (ie car pulled out from a side street) which then meant you had to stop in the box, you would not have committed the offence because at the time you entered, your exit was clear.

dannyrst

You stopped in a yellow box. You aren't allowed to stop in a yellow box.


Simples. Pay the fine and be more careful in future.

Car_54

dannyrst wrote: »

You stopped in a yellow box. You aren't allowed to stop in a yellow box.


Simples. Pay the fine and be more careful in future.

Have you read the last few posts?

unholyangel

Cornucopia wrote: »

Is there a definition somewhere of what constitutes the offence? Someone has already mentioned the issue of councils fining people for stopping in the box when that isn't the offence.


I would do it on a "better than nothing" basis, hoping that it would make me less of a target for a fine.

I'm hoping having read the legislation you don't need me to clarify but just in case:

(b)a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.

Cornucopia

unholyangel wrote: »

I'm hoping having read the legislation you don't need me to clarify but just in case:

I still think you're missing my point (which wasn't that important to start with). It is this: I am not talking about avoiding committing an offence by getting the front wheels over the line, I am talking about the person who views the footage choosing not to fine me because my front wheels are over the line ie. using their discretion.

Now that we have the legislation, it would appear to be a lot simpler and probably fairer than the HC wording or some earlier interpretations in the thread might have been.

I see it as meaning this: the offence is about entering the box. It occurs at the point when the box is entered and requires that you will stop within the box. That "will" is the only question in my mind: is it about stopping being an immediate, unavoidable consequence of entering the box, is it a question of what random events may befall you after entering the box (seems unlikely, and bad law), or is it about successfully predicting what will happen (again, unlikely).