Yellow Box Junction - PCN Advice sought

rosturra

Hi everyone.

I have just had a PCN for stopping in a box junction.

I believe I have a good case for appealing this, but that is not the point of this post.

The PCN has the location slightly wrong:

The incident actually took place on junction of Welling High Street and Danson Lane.
The PCN states location as "Welling High St/Junct w/Danson Ln and Parkview Road" (sic).

I am considering appealing on the basis that the location is wrong.

1) Does anyone know if the location matters? And this is a ground for appeal?
2) Is this error sufficiently wrong?
3) Should I keep the first appeal solely on this technical basis;
and not mention my mitigation for the offence?

I currently have a draft appeal which (abridged) says:

I wish to appeal against this PCN for the following reasons.
The first is technical; the second concerns the details of the alleged offence itself.

1) "The location of the incident was NOT on junction with Parkview Road as stated, hence I submit that the PCN is factually incorrect, and therefore invalid."

2) Please continue with this appeal only if you have dismissed point 1. ( I then go onto my spiel about poor road markings etc)


In the second point, I believe I have a good case; certainly worth an appeal. But there is photographic evidence of the offence, so I need to rely on appealing to the council's sense of fair play and good will.

So I am worried that I might lose their sympathy by trying a technical challenge first. They might put me down as a chancer, and be more inclined stick to the letter of the law!

Can you see my dilemma?
Or am I worrying too much?

Ant555

rosturra wrote: »

( I then go onto my spiel about poor road markings etc)

I have nothing to add on the legal so I guess my post may be just 'noise' but i FULLY appreciate your point relating to poor road markings, there are several yellow box junctions near me that are almost invisible most of the time due to faded lines and especially when wet.
I can see how someone not familiar with a road could easily fall foul.

I have wondered if I got caught in such circumstances, would there be any grounds for an appeal.

DoaM

Get thee to Pepipoo (I think that's the right board for this). Don't try to register using a Hotmail address. When posting include redacted (of personal info) scans of all paperwork you've received regarding this (both sides as necessary) and they'll be able to help you.

Errors in the PCN are usually fatal for enforcement. Council will probably reject any first appeal anyway, but you'd likely win a subsequent appeal to PATAS or whoever.

kmb500

if you were stopped safely then how on earth can they fine you? If you're not speeding or running a light or parked illegally then how on earth can anyone punish you. That's insane


What is a box junction?

Ebe_Scrooge

kmb500 wrote: »

if you were stopped safely then how on earth can they fine you? If you're not speeding or running a light or parked illegally then how on earth can anyone punish you. That's insane


What is a box junction?

Read the Highway Code !

soolin

kmb500 wrote: »

if you were stopped safely then how on earth can they fine you? If you're not speeding or running a light or parked illegally then how on earth can anyone punish you. That's insane


What is a box junction?

Not sure if your post is supposed to be amusing, but just in case it is real try here:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/yellow-box-junctions

OP I second the suggestion about going over to pepipoo

http://www.pepipoo.com/

Browntoa

its correct looking at the satellite view


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Guy+Earl+Of+Warwick,+Park+View+Rd,+Welling+DA16+1TB/@51.4616306,0.1126599,19z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!1m3!3m2!1s0x47d8aee8473973ad:0xf54c332ca58373fb!2sPark+View+Rd,+Welling!3m1!1s0x47d8aee843414699:0xf0300340ebf2a033?hl=en-GB




ps...its a HUGE box , not easy to miss and its to stop idiots blocking the junction up for left and right turns


that's the right description of the junction

Rosemary7391

kmb500 wrote: »

if you were stopped safely then how on earth can they fine you? If you're not speeding or running a light or parked illegally then how on earth can anyone punish you. That's insane


What is a box junction?

Um, there are more driving offences than the 3 you mention!

A box junction is a yellow box painted in a junction that you can't stop in. I think the idea is to allow ambulances and other emergency vehicles through or to prevent gridlock. (I've seen people stop in these and block ambulances more than once - in sight of the hospital!).

kmb500

soolin wrote: »

Not sure if your post is supposed to be amusing, but just in case it is real try here:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/yellow-box-junctions

OP I second the suggestion about going over to pepipoo

http://www.pepipoo.com/

I've seen those yellow grids but I never know what they mean.


I was not trying to be funny but I don't see how stopping your car is dangerous so why would you ever be fined?


On that website it says you can stop your car if you are prevented by oncoming traffic. So what is the point?

neilmcl

Browntoa wrote: »

its correct looking at the satellite view


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Guy+Earl+Of+Warwick,+Park+View+Rd,+Welling+DA16+1TB/@51.4616306,0.1126599,19z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!1m3!3m2!1s0x47d8aee8473973ad:0xf54c332ca58373fb!2sPark+View+Rd,+Welling!3m1!1s0x47d8aee843414699:0xf0300340ebf2a033?hl=en-GB




ps...its a HUGE box , not easy to miss and its to stop idiots blocking the junction up for left and right turns


that's the right description of the junction

I agree, the location as stated in the PCN is correct. I don't think the OP has a case.

Aylesbury_Duck

kmb500 wrote: »

if you were stopped safely then how on earth can they fine you? If you're not speeding or running a light or parked illegally then how on earth can anyone punish you. That's insane


What is a box junction?

Do us all a favour and stop driving until you've taken some lessons and passed your tests - theory and practical.

No wonder roads are congested and there are accidents...