Yellow Box Junction - PCN Advice sought

unholyangel

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

Sorry - I wasn't intending to sound critical. All I meant was that the wording about "due to the presence of stationary vehicles" (not sure of the precise wording) is critical to the commission of the offence.


A few other posters on here think it's an offence to stop for any reason, but it isn't.


Regarding your example, what if the car pulling out from the side road subsequently stops (which I think Car 54 was suggesting?) and you have to stop in the box. That sounds like an offence to me, but I'm not sure if it is or not. I'm sure a council would reject any appeal but I don't know if an adjudicator would as it's clearly out of your control.

No problem - it didn't come across as critical.

For answer to your question on my example, I think I've perhaps explained that in detail in my post above (sorry I'm back & forth to the computer atm so taking me ages to reply!).

Manxman_in_exile

Tarambor wrote: »

No, it is about stopping in it when not making a right turn.



It is really simple. If you enter a yellow box and are not turning right and have to stop for any reason within that box then you have committed an offence. The correct way to use that box is not to enter it until you know for certain that there is sufficient space at the other side for your vehicle to fit in.

There is no unavoidable consequence other than a mechanical breakdown or emergency vehicle. Random events only befall you and cause you to stop if you've broken the golden rule of not entering until you are sure your vehicle can exit it without stopping.

Quite simply the only way to get a fine is to not to do any forward planning at all.

"Well I didn't want to hold up anyone behind me" or "I didn't want to get stopped by a red light" is no defence.

But it's not stopping for "any reason" is it? It's stopping due to the presence of stationary vehicles.


Now I admit I don't know what other reason there might be, but I suspect that if you just stopped in a yellow box junction and there were no other stationary vehicles about, then you don't commit a YBJ offence(?). Although you may be doing something else wrong.

Cornucopia

The most obvious example of "another reason" would be the classic emergency stop because a pedestrian has stepped out in front of your vehicle.

Either that or pigeons in the road.

Cornucopia

Tarambor wrote: »

No, it is about stopping in it when not making a right turn.

It is really simple. If you enter a yellow box and are not turning right and have to stop for any reason within that box then you have committed an offence.

The legislation seems reasonably clear to me - at least to the extent that it is not solely about stopping.

The correct way to use that box is not to enter it until you know for certain that there is sufficient space at the other side for your vehicle to fit in.

Again, that's not what the legislation appears to say, and if everyone did that then there would be traffic chaos (which is why they don't).

There is no unavoidable consequence other than a mechanical breakdown or emergency vehicle. Random events only befall you and cause you to stop if you've broken the golden rule of not entering until you are sure your vehicle can exit it without stopping.

We've got way beyond this interpretation from the Highway Code, which is clearly at odds with the legislation.

There are all kinds of things that are beyond your immediate control, and no minor offence should be about events that are beyond your reasonable ability to predict or prevent.

Quite simply the only way to get a fine is to not to do any forward planning at all.

"Well I didn't want to hold up anyone behind me" or "I didn't want to get stopped by a red light" is no defence.

I think you've misconstrued the issue.

If we are going to have routine, automated enforcement of these minor offences then it has to (a) be fair and (b) be arranged so that best/common practice never results in an offence.

Manxman_in_exile

I would be grateful if somebody could give a link to the relevant legislation (sorry - I don't think I have the IT or legal wherewithal to do so myself).


It would be interesting to understand the actual wording. I'm not sure that what is in the Highway Code adequately reflects what the offence is.

Manxman_in_exile

Cornucopia wrote: »

The most obvious example of "another reason" would be the classic emergency stop because a pedestrian has stepped out in front of your vehicle.

Either that or pigeons in the road.

You are far more imaginative than me on at least two counts (although I'm not 100% sure on the pigeons).


The law (apparently) says it's only an offence if you stop because of the presence of other stationary vehicles. Some posters on here still think it's an offence to stop for any reason at all. I think that that is wrong and they misunderstand the law.


(EDIT: Cornucopia - I think I sort of agree with you that the (apparent) wording of the law and the (apparent) wording of the Highway Code could make it clearer. FWIW I think the HC has tried to make common sense out of what the law actually says, but I'm not sure it actually has. The (apparent) wording of the law seems ambiguous to me, but presumably Parliament thought it made sense. I apologise in advance for suggesting that our legislators could possibly have meant to make sense).

esuhl

Altarf wrote: »

The majority may not, but I do.

Until I can see a length of tarmac long enough to put my car in on the other side of the box I am not driving into it.

Maybe that's why there's so much road rage these days. The majority of motorists don't actually know how to drive... and even if they did, they have such a big a chip on their shoulder, they think they can blat along the road expecting everyone else to get out of their way.

Perhaps it should be illegal for anyone to sell a car to someone who doesn't obey yellow box junctions?

bigadaj

Cornucopia wrote: »

The legislation seems reasonably clear to me - at least to the extent that it is not solely about stopping.


Again, that's not what the legislation appears to say, and if everyone did that then there would be traffic chaos (which is why they don't).


We've got way beyond this interpretation from the Highway Code, which is clearly at odds with the legislation.

There are all kinds of things that are beyond your immediate control, and no minor offence should be about events that are beyond your reasonable ability to predict or prevent.


I think you've misconstrued the issue.

If we are going to have routine, automated enforcement of these minor offences then it has to (a) be fair and (b) be arranged so that best/common practice never results in an offence.

You're making yourself look a bit silly now, I hope you don't have to use areas with yellow boxes habitually, you should never block off an access or crossing without a clear exit, it ain't rocket science.

Cornucopia

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

You are far more imaginative than me on at least two counts (although I'm not 100% sure on the pigeons).

I was in two minds about whether the pigeons needed a smiley.

The law (apparently) says it's only an offence if you stop because of the presence of other stationary vehicles. Some posters on here still think it's an offence to stop for any reason at all. I think that that is wrong and they misunderstand the law.

Agreed.

(EDIT: Cornucopia - I think I sort of agree with you that the (apparent) wording of the law and the (apparent) wording of the Highway Code could make it clearer. FWIW I think the HC has tried to make common sense out of what the law actually says, but I'm not sure it actually has. The (apparent) wording of the law seems ambiguous to me, but presumably Parliament thought it made sense. I apologise in advance for suggesting that our legislators could possibly have meant to make sense).

As something of a wordsmith in a previous job, I do find it sad and strange that sometimes our Powers That Be can both mangle our wonderful language and also fail to communicate accurately.

In this case, I've been driving for 27 years and I'm still unclear from all this discussion the precise method for using a Box Junction legally. I'm all for "continuous learning", but I also think that the UK's drivers need proper guidance on how to use a common road feature - especially if there is going to be rigourous enforcement against improper use.

edit: I found this, which is interesting and revealing (in particular the historic wording about reasonableness).

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com... shorter name

Car_54

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

I would be grateful if somebody could give a link to the relevant legislation (sorry - I don't think I have the IT or legal wherewithal to do so myself).


It would be interesting to understand the actual wording. I'm not sure that what is in the Highway Code adequately reflects what the offence is.

The HC actually tells you what law applies, and you can then Google it. To save you the trouble, it's the Traffic Signs Regualtions and General Directions 2002. From memory, it's Schedule 19 part 2 section 7.