Yellow Box Junction - PCN Advice sought

Cornucopia

unholyangel wrote: »

Sorry but everything the OP has said indicates (imo) that he wasn't paying attention.

I think the best advice he received here was to consult Pepipoo. They seem to have identified a technical error with the dates, including relevant case law.

As for the legislation/guidance, I used to think the same. But if you try and write some guidance yourself, you'll quickly find that even 1 sentence in legislation can take pages and pages of complex explanation and that its not as easy as you might imagine (which is usually why my posts end up always being long winded!).

I really don't think it's that hard. You have to be properly engaged in the topic area, though, and I think many people now find that quite hard to do for some reason. In this instance I suspect that there is an element of writing what is palatable to the organisation rather than writing what is demonstrably true.

To convey what I think the Highway Code is trying to say, I would write this: "You must not enter the Box Junction unless your route across the Junction is clear".

To convey what I think the TFL guidance is trying to say, I would write this: "You must not enter the Box Junction unless your route across the Junction is clear AND there is space on the far side of the box to accommodate your vehicle in its entirety".

To convey my interpretation of the legislation: "You will commit an offence if you enter a box junction AND at that instant your route ahead is blocked by stationary vehicles (which can be inside or outside the box) causing you to stop within the box".


Which of those is actually factually correct remains open to question, though obviously it is the legislation that should have primacy.

unholyangel

Cornucopia wrote: »

I think the best advice he received here was to consult Pepipoo. They seem to have identified a technical error with the dates, including relevant case law.



I really don't think it's that hard. You have to be properly engaged in the topic area, though, and I think many people now find that quite hard to do for some reason. In this instance I suspect that there is an element of writing what is palatable to the organisation rather than writing what is demonstrably true.

To convey what I think the Highway Code is trying to say, I would write this: "You must not enter the Box Junction unless your route across the Junction is clear".

To convey what I think the TFL guidance is trying to say, I would write this: "You must not enter the Box Junction unless your route across the Junction is clear AND there is space on the far side of the box to accommodate your vehicle in its entirety".

To convey my interpretation of the legislation: "You will commit an offence if you enter a box junction AND at that instant your route ahead is blocked by stationary vehicles (which can be inside or outside the box) causing you to stop within the box".


Which of those is actually factually correct remains open to question, though obviously it is the legislation that should have primacy.

So what about the legislation stating no part of your vehicle can be within the box limits? What about those people turning right? What about those people turning right but there are stationary cars in front of them turning right? How would you convey the road marking requirements in your explanation?

As for the dates, the case law they've quoted related to a PCN that had no issue date, only the date of the offence. That case does not deal with whether its date of notice issue or date of service - so I wouldn't class it as relevant case law. However, the purpose of it is so someone who received the PCN by post is in the same position as someone who received their PCN in person. If that was taken from the date of issue, they wouldn't be treated the same as someone served in person. In order to achieve that, the date of notice would have to be taken as the date of service, the date they received it.

Thats also the view taken by the tribunal process:
http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process

Penalty Charge Notice served by post:
Your next steps:
Payment details are on the Penalty Charge Notice.
You should pay not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice was served – this is ordinarily when the notice arrived at the address to which it was posted.

There is also schedule 1 of the LLA 2003 which states:

5(1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;

Indicating that the correct period by law for expiry of the 28 days is from the date of service.

Although I suppose if OP bamboozles them with enough irrelevant details, they may just give in and cancel it anyway. But I do suspect pepipoo have fallen short on this one.

Cornucopia

unholyangel wrote: »

So what about the legislation stating no part of your vehicle can be within the box limits?

I don't think anyone would think otherwise. My objective here was not to rewrite the legislation, but to communicate it better than the authorities have been able to.

What about those people turning right? What about those people turning right but there are stationary cars in front of them turning right?

Is there any contentiousness around the right turn rules? Maybe if/when we can definitively determine what the main rules are supposed to be we can add the right-turn rules to come up with the "best ever" explanation, but we aren't there yet (and I suspect we won't ever be).

How would you convey the road marking requirements in your explanation?

A picture speaks a thousand words. I'm really only concerned with fixing the broken verbiage not re-working the Highway Code.

facade

unholyangel wrote: »

So what about the legislation stating no part of your vehicle can be within the box limits?

That is fairly clear isn't it? Same as no part of your vehicle can pass the stopline when the traffic lights are red. (saves all the arguments from drivers who think their vehicle starts and ends at the wheels)

unholyangel wrote: »

What about those people turning right?

The first car can wait in the box, provided its path is only blocked by oncoming traffic. (and when it tries to turn right and can't because all the left turners blocked the exit that wasn't blocked when he entered the box......)

unholyangel wrote: »

What about those people turning right but there are stationary cars in front of them turning right?

They cannot wait in the box, as they are not blocked by oncoming traffic

Car_54

facade wrote: »

They cannot wait in the box, as they are not blocked by oncoming traffic

Yes they can. The legislation specifically allows stopping while waiting to turn right and " ... prevented by vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."

esuhl

barbiedoll wrote: »

I got a fine in this box junction, because the stupid bint in front of me decided to stop immediately after leaving the box, despite having at least one full car length clear in front of her. :mad:

It sounds like you got the fine because you were a stupid bint who didn't ensure your exit was clear before you entered the yellow box.

You got caught red-handed. You can't blame the driver in front for your actions.

Manxman_in_exile

Joe_Horner wrote: »

It's now TRSDG 2016 sched 9 part 7 section 11.

Interesting point from the wording is that, if you drove into one where there's enough room to exit but stopped in it anyway, you wouldn't be committing the offence

As I suggested in post #103.


This demonstrates how difficult it is (in this country) to attempt to draft legislation and regs which try to cover every eventuality. Ignoring the issue of cars turning right, why not just make it an offence to stop for any reason (which some posters here clearly think is the law) which would be sensible?


FWIW I think the TFL guidance referred to by others is quite reasonable - your route across the junction needs to be clear and there has to be enough room after the box for your vehicle to exit entirely.


(And I know this doesn't take account of "cutting up" etc but this demonstrates why it's so difficult to draft legislation which attempts to cater for every eventuality).

Cornucopia

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

This demonstrates how difficult it is (in this country) to attempt to draft legislation and regs which try to cover every eventuality.

I remain unconvinced that it is hard - I think that the present-day authorities lack enthusiasm for the task, a desire to genuinely assist the Public, proportionality (especially where fines are concerned) and common sense.

Ignoring the issue of cars turning right, why not just make it an offence to stop for any reason (which some posters here clearly think is the law) which would be sensible?

The issue is (a) that the vast majority of drivers do something other than that (they proceed if they have a reasonable expectation of being able to clear the box), and (b) these are supposed to be simple laws and lack an "intent" element, so making the offence contingent on something a driver cannot 100% predict or prevent is unfair and therefore unacceptable.

I think if the authorities and the Public really want this to be robust enforcement (and I'm not sure that they do) then they need to ensure that every box junction is protected by traffic lights with traffic monitoring. Then the junction can be kept clear and any contraventions will be red light offences.

I don't see a way to make Yellow Box Junction enforcement work that is fair, easily understood and compatible with other legal principles.

unholyangel

Cornucopia wrote: »

I don't think anyone would think otherwise. My objective here was not to rewrite the legislation, but to communicate it better than the authorities have been able to.


Is there any contentiousness around the right turn rules? Maybe if/when we can definitively determine what the main rules are supposed to be we can add the right-turn rules to come up with the "best ever" explanation, but we aren't there yet (and I suspect we won't ever be).


A picture speaks a thousand words. I'm really only concerned with fixing the broken verbiage not re-working the Highway Code.

The wording you're suggesting using is:

You will commit an offence if you enter a box junction AND at that instant your route ahead is blocked by stationary vehicles (which can be inside or outside the box) causing you to stop within the box

You say that you don't think anyone would think otherwise - but you did, earlier in this thread (despite the highway code saying you must be able to cross it completely without stopping). People reading your interpretation wouldn't know about that requirement, nor would they know that theres an exception for right turning traffic, even if there are stationary cars (but only if those stationary cars are also turning right).

As I said earlier, its really not that easy a task to write something for the layperson in a way that accurately portrays the law without having to have a lengthy explanation.

facade wrote: »

That is fairly clear isn't it? Same as no part of your vehicle can pass the stopline when the traffic lights are red. (saves all the arguments from drivers who think their vehicle starts and ends at the wheels)



The first car can wait in the box, provided its path is only blocked by oncoming traffic. (and when it tries to turn right and can't because all the left turners blocked the exit that wasn't blocked when he entered the box......)



They cannot wait in the box, as they are not blocked by oncoming traffic

As above, I wasn't asking what happens in those situations. Cornucopia & I were discussing how you could accurately & succinctly give a layperson the law. I'm trying to demonstrate its not as easy as he might think, all those questions I asked are covered by the legislation itself.

But as car 54 notes, you're allowed to wait/stop in the box if you are turning right and are only prevented from turning right due to oncoming traffic or stationary traffic also waiting to turn right.

Cornucopia

There's no issue with adding the right-turn rules. I excluded them deliberately - it was not an error, and I was not attempting to state a "complete" set of rules, merely address the wording/inconsistency issues with what we already have.

If you want to add them, be my guest...

This is how I would word that element: "You are allowed to enter and stop within the Box if you are turning right and you are prevented from doing so either by oncoming traffic or by other vehicles queuing to turn right".

To be really exact, you could add: "You may not queue within the box to turn right if you can already see that the right-turn exit is blocked by stationary vehicles".