Yellow Box Junction - PCN Advice sought

Manxman_in_exile

unholyangel wrote: »

The offence isn't stopping - the legislation doesn't say anything like "you shall not stop in a box junction" its "you shall not cause the vehicle to enter a box junction where you will have to stop".

I appreciate its a subtle difference though.

If (for example) you entered the box at a time your exit was clear and something subsequently happened (ie car pulled out from a side street) which then meant you had to stop in the box, you would not have committed the offence because at the time you entered, your exit was clear.

But you've missed the point made by Car54 that it's only an offence if you are caused to stop due to the presence of (other) stationary vehicles. Isn't that the important point? (They certainly stress it a lot on Pepipoo).

unholyangel

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

But you've missed the point made by Car54 that it's only an offence if you are caused to stop due to the presence of (other) stationary vehicles. Isn't that the important point? (They certainly stress it a lot on Pepipoo).

How have I missed the point? I then go on to explain that if you entered the box when your exit was clear but then had to stop in the box due to a car pulling out from a side street, you have not committed an offence.

Car_54

Cornucopia wrote: »

I still think you're missing my point (which wasn't that important to start with). It is this: I am not talking about avoiding committing an offence by getting the front wheels over the line, I am talking about the person who views the footage choosing not to fine me because my front wheels are over the line ie. using their discretion.

They have used their discretion, just not in the direction you'd have liked.

Car_54

unholyangel wrote: »

How have I missed the point? I then go on to explain that if you entered the box when your exit was clear but then had to stop in the box due to a car pulling out from a side street, you have not committed an offence.

If the car pulling out was stationary, then the offence seems complete.

dannyrst

Car_54 wrote: »

Have you read the last few posts?

Why does it have to become so pedantic?


The OP is trying to get out of it on a technicality to do with location. My point was simply that his appeal on the basis of the location being wrong doesn't mean he didn't commit the offence. Just pay the money and learn.

Manxman_in_exile

unholyangel wrote: »

How have I missed the point? I then go on to explain that if you entered the box when your exit was clear but then had to stop in the box due to a car pulling out from a side street, you have not committed an offence.

Sorry - I wasn't intending to sound critical. All I meant was that the wording about "due to the presence of stationary vehicles" (not sure of the precise wording) is critical to the commission of the offence.


A few other posters on here think it's an offence to stop for any reason, but it isn't.


Regarding your example, what if the car pulling out from the side road subsequently stops (which I think Car 54 was suggesting?) and you have to stop in the box. That sounds like an offence to me, but I'm not sure if it is or not. I'm sure a council would reject any appeal but I don't know if an adjudicator would as it's clearly out of your control.

Manxman_in_exile

Car_54 wrote: »

If the car pulling out was stationary, then the offence seems complete.

So do you think (or do you know) whether this example would be an offence or not?


(PS - I assume you mean the car pulling out subsequently becomes stationary?)

Car_54

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

So do you think (or do you know) whether this example would be an offence or not?


(PS - I assume you mean the car pulling out subsequently becomes stationary?)

I think it's an offence. The box has been entered and the car has stopped dUe to stationary traffic.

PS Yes, pulling out and stopping subsequently.

unholyangel

Car_54 wrote: »

If the car pulling out was stationary, then the offence seems complete.

If the car was pulling out, it can't be stationary.

As I said, it comes down to whether your exit was clear at the time you entered the box. If it was, then no offence is committed as you did not cause the vehicle to enter the box junction when it would have to stop within the limits of the box due to stationary vehicles, even if you actually stop in the box.

Conversely, if you just follow the car in front without checking that there is also enough room for you to exit (or if a car pulled out from a junction before you entered the box), then you have entered the box junction when you would have to stop within the limits due to stationary vehicles and so have committed the offence.

ETA: in other words if there was space for 1 car at the other side and the car pulls out from a side street after you enter the box, no offence. If the car pulls out before you enter then it would likely be an offence.

System

Cornucopia wrote: »

I see it as meaning this: the offence is about entering the box.

No, it is about stopping in it when not making a right turn.

It occurs at the point when the box is entered and requires that you will stop within the box. That "will" is the only question in my mind: is it about stopping being an immediate, unavoidable consequence of entering the box, is it a question of what random events may befall you after entering the box (seems unlikely, and bad law), or is it about successfully predicting what will happen (again, unlikely).

It is really simple. If you enter a yellow box and are not turning right and have to stop for any reason within that box then you have committed an offence. The correct way to use that box is not to enter it until you know for certain that there is sufficient space at the other side for your vehicle to fit in.

There is no unavoidable consequence other than a mechanical breakdown or emergency vehicle. Random events only befall you and cause you to stop if you've broken the golden rule of not entering until you are sure your vehicle can exit it without stopping.

Quite simply the only way to get a fine is to not to do any forward planning at all.

"Well I didn't want to hold up anyone behind me" or "I didn't want to get stopped by a red light" is no defence.