A Brexiters view

chucknorris

Sapphire wrote: »

That's true, but I think what Thrug was saying was that people measure others by their wealth (and therefore financial status), and less by other criteria.

I'm most interested (and impressed) by people who achieve great things in, say, archaeology, science or anything else that requires deep knowledge, and that helps us to understand the world and perhaps make it a better place.

Don't mind money, though.

I think your sister is doing a great job making the world a better place for dogs.

economic

chucknorris wrote: »

Money to me means financial freedom, not status (apart from very close friends, no one knows about our wealth), for example our current car is a 9 year old Zafira (the one before that was a 10 year old mondeo), which I bought 8 years ago, we might buy another car next year, but that is dependent upon getting a caravan and towing capacities, nothing at all to do with having a nicer car.

The pay for lecturing is far less than I could earn as a chartered quantity surveyor, I have had no interest at all in working as a QS since I left that about 16 years ago, at that point I started doing voluntary work for dog rescue centres (only minimal part time though).

Totally respect this. Always best to live below your means and never show off. Experiences and doing stuff is what it's all about. Collecting things to show off doesn't make sense at all.

StevieJ

StevieJ wrote: »

Ladbrokes 14/06/16 leave 43% chance 5/4
Stay 57% chance 4/6

NOW Leave 34% chance 7/4
Stay 66% chance 4/9

This is the first reverse movement in the leave vote for quite a while, may start seeing this reflected in the polls?

Seems the polls are were reflecting this, even before the very tragic events on Friday Stay now 3/10 and Leave 5/2 with Ladbrokes. Looks like the tide has well and truly turned back towards the stay camp.

gfplux

wymondham wrote: »

As the majority of those on this board seem to be in the Remain camp I thought I'd post this so you can see why a normal, middle/working class bloke with a young family feels the only voting option is out.

I've read with interest lots of differing opinions on the EU vote. I've tried to see past the fluff from both sides and try to see why different people/organisations have the view they do. On the whole I've noticed those I talk to generally when out and about are of the same or similar opinions I have whereas businesses tend to favour Remain (and some helpfully informing their staff about this also!).

My main two main reasons are:

The EU is un-democratic.

UK citizens can't effect change or vote out those in Brussels. Despite being told otherwise, this isn't really possible when all major parties I can vote for here are in favour of the EU. I consider it vital to be able to vote out those in power (directly). If one of the major parties had a different policy then things might be different.

Immigration.

I have real concerns about this. The problem is if we have it running at the current rate or higher, with those people coming in not necessarily offering anything of value to the economy or society then we are building up a massive social problem which cannot be undone. We can't fix this later - once the problem is here it is with us forever. This is not like a bad political policy that the next party in can undo or repeal. Those coming to this country must bring skills which are needed and be able to speak English so to permit integration.

I'm surprised how I feel as I've never felt so passionately about a subject before, especially a political one! I think it is mostly due to me thinking about my Children and what the UK will be like for them if we stay in.

That's it....

Hello WHYMONDHAM,
I just wanted to reply to your concerns about immigration.

You hopefully understand that there are two groups of immigrants coming to the UK.

1) The first group are EU citizens. Yes being a member of the EU means we agree to free movement of EU citizens between country's. This means that any citizen of an EU Country can move, live and work and study without restriction in any other EU Country.

As an example your son or daughter can move to Italy or an Italian son or daughter can move to England, Wales, Scotland or N Island.

These immigrants if young tend to stay for a number of years and many then go home. Example Franchesca moves to London from Milan, works in Burger King, lives, loves and learns English and returns to Italy after a few years. If these immigrants are older they may move from Leicester to Alicante Spain to retire in the sun. This type of immigrant might live out their days in Spain or return to the UK very late in life.

That is the definition of FREE MOVEMENY WITHIN THE EU.

2) This second group are in the majority economic and/or conflict immigrants. They DO NOT HAVE free movement in to the UK. If they have managed to land in/on a EU Country they under certain circumstances have movement within the Shengen area of the EU.
AS BRITAIN IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE SCHENGEN AREA they can not LEGALLY move to the UK.

So now we have an understanding of the two groups can you help me to see your problem and if this problem will be solved by leaving the EU.

Looking forward to your help.

wymondham

gfplux wrote: »

Hello WHYMONDHAM,
I just wanted to reply to your concerns about immigration.

You hopefully understand that there are two groups of immigrants coming to the UK.

1) The first group are EU citizens. Yes being a member of the EU means we agree to free movement of EU citizens between country's. This means that any citizen of an EU Country can move, live and work and study without restriction in any other EU Country.

As an example your son or daughter can move to Italy or an Italian son or daughter can move to England, Wales, Scotland or N Island.

These immigrants if young tend to stay for a number of years and many then go home. Example Franchesca moves to London from Milan, works in Burger King, lives, loves and learns English and returns to Italy after a few years. If these immigrants are older they may move from Leicester to Alicante Spain to retire in the sun. This type of immigrant might live out their days in Spain or return to the UK very late in life.

That is the definition of FREE MOVEMENY WITHIN THE EU.

2) This second group are in the majority economic and/or conflict immigrants. They DO NOT HAVE free movement in to the UK. If they have managed to land in/on a EU Country they under certain circumstances have movement within the Shengen area of the EU.
AS BRITAIN IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE SCHENGEN AREA they can not LEGALLY move to the UK.

So now we have an understanding of the two groups can you help me to see your problem and if this problem will be solved by leaving the EU.

Looking forward to your help.

Thanks for detailed reply. So if we look at point 1, leaving the EU would permit the UK to decide on numbers and thus control as necessary. As the EU grows so does our automatic acceptance of greater numbers and that is the issue..

vivatifosi

In my mind there are three groups of immigrants: legal migrants from inside the EU, legal migrants from outside of the EU and illegal immigrants. Perhaps 4 if you include asylum seekers.

In terms of the legal migrants from outside of the EU, they make up 50% of the total anyway. The government can do as it likes to reduce or increase the numbers of these.. it is nothing to do with the EU.

In terms of legal migrants, yes they have a right to come here. However if we left, they would also have a right if we follow both the Norwegian or Swiss route, without the rights we have built up in the EU:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html
If we don't follow one of these models, I worry for the impact on the economy. If we do follow one of these models, what would be the point in leaving.

Then there are illegal immigrants. We are lucky to be an island in that the channel puts a big physical obstacle in the way. But the UK is not going to float out into the North Sea, so this risk remains. It may even get worse if the French stop us controlling the borders from Calais. A truck driver interviewed on R4 in the week said that this would lead to a free for all and do untold damage to the industry (though I'd like to hear bugslet's opinion on this).

I get the arguments for sovereignty, I understand the frustrations re immigration, but don't see a workable solution, I definitely see risks to the economy. So why vote leave?

mrginge

Senior politicians from both major parties have already stated that the free movement rules need to be addressed, plus of course we have DC's renegotiation victory as well so you can be confident that post-remain the high levels of immigration will be getting reduced.

Only the greens and few remaining lib dems are now committed to free movement of labour.

wymondham

mrginge wrote: »

plus of course we have DC's renegotiation victory........

sorry not sure I follow, when did this happen?

[Deleted User]

wymondham wrote: »

sorry not sure I follow, when did this happen?

I missed the victory too.., think most of us did lol.

But thanks for making me lose most of my coffee lol.

Scarpacci

mrginge wrote: »

Senior politicians from both major parties have already stated that the free movement rules need to be addressed, plus of course we have DC's renegotiation victory as well so you can be confident that post-remain the high levels of immigration will be getting reduced.

I think, unfortunately, post-remain the people who in recent days have seen the light on free movement will conveniently forget all about it and nothing at all will change. They're throwing this out as bait to people whose natural inclination is to leave the EU but whose fears and the promise of change might lead to a remain vote. It will not lead to anything.

It's even less watertight than David Cameron's promise to "renegotiate" our relationship with the EU, which led to nothing much at all because the EU and Merkel in particular don't want anything to change. The EU didn't offer us much at all when there was the possibility of us actually leaving the whole shebang, they're not going to be gifting us prized changes when we're permanently stuck in the EU.

There's no promise, there's no commitment, there's no hope of any change. I hope people whose hearts say Brexit won't be swayed by these false promises.