A Brexiters view

wotsthat

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The EU is a collective with a French\German power axis. With it's aim a federal Europe. The UK was never politically aligned with this viewpoint.

Europe has trashed many a UK MP's career. That's the only reason we've never engaged - nothing to do with any political alignment.

Ironically we're going to be engaging more and the public will have a better idea of how it works than at any time in the last 40 years.

Thrugelmir

wotsthat wrote: »

Europe has trashed many a UK MP's career. That's the only reason we've never engaged - nothing to do with any political alignment.

Europe is as a generalisation more socialist and left leaning. How many European governments are right of centre parties or coalitions?

force_ten

I don't think we'll ever get a good deal from the EU, they can't be seen to give us a good deal because it would be the end of the EU as we know it

if the UK comes out of this smelling of roses then everybody in the EU will want a piece of the action, and that is the last thing that the EU wants, they will try and make an example of us so they can say if you step out of line the same will happen to you

the main leave argument seems to be closing borders but i cant see us coming out of this with access to the free market in europe as well as closed borders

so what is more important to us in the UK free access to the open market in europe or control of our borders?, it seems that many think we will get both but i for one will not be holding my breath waiting for this one

CKhalvashi

force_ten wrote: »

I don't think we'll ever get a good deal from the EU, they can't be seen to give us a good deal because it would be the end of the EU as we know it

if the UK comes out of this smelling of roses then everybody in the EU will want a piece of the action, and that is the last thing that the EU wants, they will try and make an example of us so they can say if you step out of line the same will happen to you

the main leave argument seems to be closing borders but i cant see us coming out of this with access to the free market in europe as well as closed borders

so what is more important to us in the UK free access to the open market in europe or control of our borders?, it seems that many think we will get both but i for one will not be holding my breath waiting for this one

IMO both are important.

The best thing for the UK is probably to keep things as they are now. I'm not referring to what any particular group of people want, I'm referring to the best solution in purely economic terms.

If we lose freedom of trade, then we risk becoming uncompetitive. IMO whichever way you look at it, access to a free market of 450 million people is possibly the best thing that could happen to any country, and if used correctly can have huge benefit for every country in the bloc.

If we lose freedom of movement, then we risk being shoved into a position where we can't use the freedom of trade to it's full potential. IMO it's so much easier to shove someone into a position where they can work exclusively with a target company for x months as cooperation develops, where if visas are required this situation possibly isn't going to be possible, at least not as easily as now.

Maybe if more young Brits were willing to disappear to work in the EU for a few years, and realise how easily this can be achieved on little funds (I know several who have moved to Eastern Europe in the last few years on a last months wages, some have returned, some haven't), then what we stand to lose could possibly be embraced a lot more than it has been.

I personally feel that we'd be better off in some form of EU or EEA agreement, but who knows?

wotsthat

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Europe is as a generalisation more socialist and left leaning. How many European governments are right of centre parties or coalitions?

The UK hasn't avoided engaging with Europe on principle because they're to the left of the UK.

If you're right then, without the UK, they're going to be even further left on aggregate. Of course doesn't affect us anymore because we'll be out of it and we've got the English Channel.

Or as it's now going to be called The Little Englander Channel.

wymondham

force_ten wrote: »

I don't think we'll ever get a good deal from the EU, they can't be seen to give us a good deal because it would be the end of the EU as we know it

We couldn't get a good deal when we were a major player and were 'at the table', so getting one now will be long shot.... The EU can't negotiate as all eyes are on what we get out of them....

force_ten

wymondham wrote: »

We couldn't get a good deal when we were a major player and were 'at the table', so getting one now will be long shot.... The EU can't negotiate as all eyes are on what we get out of them....

that is so true we couldn't get a good deal when we were in so it bodes ill for when we are out

wymondham

force_ten wrote: »

that is so true we couldn't get a good deal when we were in so it bodes ill for when we are out

at least once out we don't have to pay for the privilege of not being listened to...

dktreesea

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The EU is a collective with a French\German power axis. With it's aim a federal Europe. The UK was never politically aligned with this viewpoint.

Exactly. And I think the Germans/French understood this so have never been overly enthusiastic about our membership. They liked our money but not us, because we don't kow tow to them, and treat them as the best on the block.


But if the Germans think they can whip the other 26 member states into line, accepting a federal system with the Germans as the unelected head of the "state" running the show, I only see that happening if there is a flow of funds from the richer EU members into the coffers of the poorer EU members.


Surely at some point the citizens of the richer countries are going to balk at their taxes being used to prop up what are basically failed states economically (e.g. Greece) indefinitely?

dktreesea

force_ten wrote: »

that is so true we couldn't get a good deal when we were in so it bodes ill for when we are out

It could be a better deal now we are out. Does the EU want to export to us or not? We buy 20% of the German's car industry output. Yes, when we were in, there was no incentive for the rest of the EU to offer us a deal, hence Cameron coming back humiliated, with pretty much nothing worthwhile to show for his efforts, something I think directly impacted on the vote, swinging it in favour of Brexit. But now we are out, we don't need to trade with the EU. We can make trade agreements with the rest of the 7 billion people on earth.


The EU, and Britain for that matter, are similar to a household. Say you have a family, and they have one wage coming in, £200 a week. This is their only income. the parents distribute pocket money to the children, say £30 a week in total, which is then spent outside the family. So the wealth of the family reduces. Say they produce stuff, but only pass it between each other, e.g. the mother makes toffee apples then charges the children 20p each per apple. The wealth of the family is unchanged. They pay £100 rent to someone else in the community. Their wealth decreases, the landlord's wealth improves, but overall the community's wealth doesn't change.


This could happen to the EU. They can trade with each other all they like but unless they trade with outsiders like Britain, selling what they produce in return for income, their wealth as a whole isn't going to rise. that's a recipe for recession.


We have something to contribute here. If the Germans sell a car to us they can charge more for that car than if they sell one to Romania, or Spain or even their own consumers. that applies to a lot of exports of goods from the EU to the UK. The exporters can get better prices from us than they can from their own domestic markets. Plus we run a trade deficit with the EU. Percentages don't matter if the value of those trades is not in our favour. Can you imagine what would happen if Britain stopped buying from the EU? They export 16% of their goods to us. Some of the EU if not all of it, would go into recession.


I've seen figures saying 44% of our exports go to Europe, but this is misleading because the export is counted if it goes via Rotterdam and then is exported via that port to the rest of the world. So we stop using Rotterdam and ship directly from Southampton instead.


Britain to me is in a strong negotiating position with the EU. We don't export commodities by and large. We export high end expensive things, like medical equipment, farm machinery, formula one cars, aston martins, pharmaceuticals. We don't have to buy pharmaceuticals made in Greece/Italy, the EU. There are plenty of other nations who make the same thing and with whom we might even be able to negotiate better prices. Or better still, make everything here.


The EU can talk tough, but Britain needs to toughen up. What's Germany going to do, make us like Cuba with the US, i.e. no trade with us allowed? The countries in the EU who most benefit from trading with up would not want that.