A Brexiters view

Scarpacci

wotsthat wrote: »

Germany engages fully with Europe, effectively lobbies her European partners and her influence increases - go figure.

I don't know if I'd describe Germany's actions on Greece as effective lobbying of a European partner, but yes you're right. The Germans are far more active in Europe. It's their major policy and goes to the core of most of German politics. That was never going to be true for Britain.

wotsthat wrote: »

Only in the UK would we complain about this after spending 40 years sulking on the sidelines and then sending wrecking-ball MEP's.

The MEPs are an irrelevance for the reasons you list above. Germany wasn't strong because of its committed European MEPs. Britain wasn't weak because we sent a bunch of UKIP MEPs who waste time. I think the cause and effect there might be the other way around.

wotsthat wrote: »

Now Germany really is the dominant player in the EU. It's as if you don't like this idea but still voted for it.

German dominance was inevitable and it was happening even as the UK were members. Outside the UK if the EU has less influence over us then that will mark a successful exit. We'll have to see where it goes. German industrial pragmatism might lead to an EU relationship which focuses on trade over political control.

Sapphire

ukcarper wrote: »

They have been telling us they are going to win and now they have that can't agree on what they want it will be at least 4 months before we activate section 50 probably more months of uncertainly.

I think they do know exactly what they want, and what the majority of British people want and that has to be fulfilled (I believe that outside affluent London, something like 7 per cent of people voted to leave the EU). I agree that section 50 needs to be activated as quickly as possible, so there is no ambiguity about us leaving.

I also think it was irresponsible of Cameron to express his intention to resign in several months time, rather than immediately. It appears to have been a display of pique, more than anything else – not something I would have expected of him before his 'renegotiations'. I'm afraid that those who will be taking us out of the EU must give up on their holidays this year…

ukcarper

Sapphire wrote: »

I think they do know exactly what they want, and what the majority of British people want and that has to be fulfilled (I believe that outside affluent London, something like 7 per cent of people voted to leave the EU). I agree that section 50 needs to be activated as quickly as possible, so there is no ambiguity about us leaving.

I also think it was irresponsible of Cameron to express his intention to resign in several months time, rather than immediately. It appears to have been a display of pique, more than anything else – not something I would have expected of him before his 'renegotiations'. I'm afraid that those who will be taking us out of the EU must give up on their holidays this year…

I'm fairly sure the people who voted out know what they want but I'm not convinced leave do and there are mixed messages coming from within the leave side.

mwpt

Scarpacci wrote: »

I don't know if I'd describe Germany's actions on Greece as effective lobbying of a European partner

What were Germany's actions on Greece and why don't you mention the other 26 nations who voted on the bail-out terms?

Scarpacci

mwpt wrote: »

What were Germany's actions on Greece and why don't you mention the other 26 nations who voted on the bail-out terms?

Germany's actions were to push for austerity and against a sensible debt relief package, driven by the German view of themselves as a prudent, hard-working people and their view of the Greeks as profligate shirkers. This whole saga has been hugely influenced by the psychology of Germany's attitude to debt and inflation. Views which in the past would have only affected the one country but are, thanks to Germany's position at the heart of Europe, playing out across the continent.

I accept this is much driven by the media perception that Germany dominates Europe, but the news during Grexit fears and the bail-out was dominated by Angela Merkel and Wolfgang Schauble. Did the finance minister of the Czech Republic or Malta have a view? Presumably yes, but who heard them? They were not leading the debate or the action taken. That's the cost for Germany of being in the leader's chair in Europe, they'll be the ones who face the blow back.

mwpt

Scarpacci wrote: »

Germany's actions were to push for austerity and against a sensible debt relief package, driven by the German view of themselves as a prudent, hard-working people and their view of the Greeks as profligate shirkers. This whole saga has been hugely influenced by the psychology of Germany's attitude to debt and inflation. Views which in the past would have only affected the one country but are, thanks to Germany's position at the heart of Europe, playing out across the continent.

I accept this is much driven by the media perception that Germany dominates Europe, but the news during Grexit fears and the bail-out was dominated by Angela Merkel and Wolfgang Schauble. Did the finance minister of the Czech Republic or Malta have a view? Presumably yes, but who heard them? They were not leading the debate or the action taken. That's the cost for Germany of being in the leader's chair in Europe, they'll be the ones who face the blow back.

So blame the media. They (the smaller nations) obviously voted for the bailout terms, and if I recall, some of the smaller nations were most vocal that debt relief was not an option.

Also, your narrative is just that, your narrative. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the creditor to offer unlimited credit to the debtor with no strings attached.

gfplux

Sapphire wrote: »

I think they do know exactly what they want, and what the majority of British people want and that has to be fulfilled (I believe that outside affluent London, something like 7 per cent of people voted to leave the EU). I agree that section 50 needs to be activated as quickly as possible, so there is no ambiguity about us leaving.

I also think it was irresponsible of Cameron to express his intention to resign in several months time, rather than immediately. It appears to have been a display of pique, more than anything else – not something I would have expected of him before his 'renegotiations'. I'm afraid that those who will be taking us out of the EU must give up on their holidays this year…

Cameron lost so he had to go. He could have walked immediately leaving Britain leaderless while the Torys went through their process of choosing a new leader. This would have lead to even MORE uncertainty. So on the whole he has done the right thing for Britain post Brexshit.
I COMPLETELY agree with you that he should have resigned from the EU immediately and Cameron can be critisized for that but cleverly he has handed that job on to (God forbid) Boris.
I voted remain but we lost so I expected our leaders to get on with the job and get out of the EU.
Frankly by delaying this is a betrayal of the out voters.
We now are discussing delay or never sending in our resignation to the EU because the referendum was not legally binding!!!
The world watches us a First world country tinker with Democracy like a third world country.

dktreesea

StevieJ wrote: »

Am I missing something here? Frank Field campaigned for out?

Yes he did, but he, along with other Brexiteers wants to choose the moment to trigger Article 50 to leave.


I think they may have all been put in their places by Cameron though, remain and Leave supporters, because he said in parliament recently that there will be no long winded delay, and certainly no indefinite postponement and the will of the people must be followed and implemented. Fine words, but he's the leader; he should be leading us through the exit doors, not wimping out and resigning.

dktreesea

Scarpacci wrote: »

Germany's actions were to push for austerity and against a sensible debt relief package, driven by the German view of themselves as a prudent, hard-working people and their view of the Greeks as profligate shirkers. This whole saga has been hugely influenced by the psychology of Germany's attitude to debt and inflation. Views which in the past would have only affected the one country but are, thanks to Germany's position at the heart of Europe, playing out across the continent.

I accept this is much driven by the media perception that Germany dominates Europe, but the news during Grexit fears and the bail-out was dominated by Angela Merkel and Wolfgang Schauble. Did the finance minister of the Czech Republic or Malta have a view? Presumably yes, but who heard them? They were not leading the debate or the action taken. That's the cost for Germany of being in the leader's chair in Europe, they'll be the ones who face the blow back.

If it weren't for the Allies rescuing and rebuilding Germany after World War two, Germany would probably be a relatively poor country. Their attitude to the Greeks is hypocritical. They are dictators at heart, people who think they know what is good for the rest of us. Thank goodness for the brave English and Welsh who voted out. Walking into the unknown with their heads held high, away from Dictator Merkel.

Thrugelmir

gfplux wrote: »

What was a golden opportunity to mould, shape and lead the EU was wasted.

The EU is a collective with a French\German power axis. With it's aim a federal Europe. The UK was never politically aligned with this viewpoint.