A Brexiters view

wymondham

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As the majority of those on this board seem to be in the Remain camp I thought I'd post this so you can see why a normal, middle/working class bloke with a young family feels the only voting option is out.

I've read with interest lots of differing opinions on the EU vote. I've tried to see past the fluff from both sides and try to see why different people/organisations have the view they do. On the whole I've noticed those I talk to generally when out and about are of the same or similar opinions I have whereas businesses tend to favour Remain (and some helpfully informing their staff about this also!).

My main two main reasons are:

The EU is un-democratic.

UK citizens can't effect change or vote out those in Brussels. Despite being told otherwise, this isn't really possible when all major parties I can vote for here are in favour of the EU. I consider it vital to be able to vote out those in power (directly). If one of the major parties had a different policy then things might be different.

Immigration.

I have real concerns about this. The problem is if we have it running at the current rate or higher, with those people coming in not necessarily offering anything of value to the economy or society then we are building up a massive social problem which cannot be undone. We can't fix this later - once the problem is here it is with us forever. This is not like a bad political policy that the next party in can undo or repeal. Those coming to this country must bring skills which are needed and be able to speak English so to permit integration. The Australian points system is a good example for us.

As the EU is pro moving more powers to Brussels and for free movement without borders I cannot vote for it regardless of all other arguments or points of view as without a free self Governing and secure country we have nothing, regardless of how rich we are or how well our pensions perform. I now have an opportunity (my one and only opportunity) to make a positive change.

Witnessing David Cameron's inability to win any meaningful concessions with the EU when we had our strongest hand and they knew the outcome would be a referendum speaks volumes. Europe does not care about us, or care for us, but does however like our hefty contributions. We will become more and more insignificant as our identity is swallowed up in the EU machine. We are kidding ourselves if we think the EU will modernise and reform, indeed I think if we stay in we will witness integration speeding up.

I know there are lots of reasons to stay, given mostly from big business, some economists, most politicians and others who equally benefit being in the EU. Lots of intelligent people have stated some very good reasons on this board, and I'm sure they are correct (all relating to finance), but ALL of these amount to nothing to me due to the above..

I'm in no doubt that we'll face an economic shock if we leave, but I think this has been overstated and we as a country can get through it - coming out much stronger and in a far better position than we are now.

I'm surprised how I feel as I've never felt so passionately about a subject before, especially a political one! I think it is mostly due to me thinking about my Children and what the UK will be like for them if we stay in.

That's it....

Spidernick

wymondham wrote: »

As the majority of those on this board seem to be in the Remain camp

Seriously?!

ruggedtoast

wymondham wrote: »

Immigration.

I have real concerns about this. The problem is if we have it running at the current rate or higher, with those people coming in not necessarily offering anything of value to the economy or society then we are building up a massive social problem which cannot be undone...

Which massive social problem that can't be undone are you referring to?

Precisely how is it that immigration to and from Europe is causing you a problem? Admittedly it didn't work out so well for the Celts and Saxons but I think we've moved past that now.

No, there aren't enough houses. Because the government, that I suspect you voted for, has a policy in place of strangling housing supply to please the "my house is my pension" blue rinses in the home counties.

Witnessing David Cameron's inability to win any meaningful concessions with the EU when we had our strongest hand...

This is such a load of baloney. David Cameron got the only meaningful concession he cared about. That the City of London would never be subject to any European regulation. Of course it wont be subject to any regulation if we leave the EU either so I guess he and his stockbroking family, mates and future directorships are laughing whatever happens.

His other "demands" were absurd. A meandering shopping list of things that were designed to play well to the Daily Mail and that he knew were utterly impossible.

If you want to protest against David Cameron's rank incompetence then try voting for a candidate other than the Conservative one in the next election. And not UKIP.

Sapphire

wymondham wrote: »

Witnessing David Cameron's inability to win any meaningful concessions with the EU when we had our strongest hand and they knew the outcome would be a referendum speaks volumes. Europe does not care about us, or care for us, but does however like our hefty contributions. We will become more and more insignificant as our identity is swallowed up in the EU machine. We are kidding ourselves if we think the EU will modernise and reform, indeed I think if we stay in we will witness integration speeding up.

I know there are lots of reasons to stay, given mostly from big business, some economists, most politicians and others who equally benefit being in the EU. Lots of intelligent people have stated some very good reasons on this board, and I'm sure they are correct (all relating to finance), but ALL of these amount to nothing to me due to the above..

I'm in no doubt that we'll face an economic shock if we leave, but I think this has been overstated and we as a country can get through it - coming out much stronger and in a far better position than we are now.

I'm surprised how I feel as I've never felt so passionately about a subject before, especially a political one! I think it is mostly due to me thinking about my Children and what the UK will be like for them if we stay in.

That's it....

I agree with both the points in your OP, and the above. I've also always believed strongly in democracy – one sees what happens when there is none – and in the ability to vote in the people one wants to vote in, and vote them out promptly if one doesn't feel they are doing a good job. European nations had to fight hard for many years to achieve democracy (some, like the Eastern European countries, had to do so particularly hard and at great cost). The EU doesn't remotely resemble a democratic organisation, and the fact that the idea of an 'ever-growing political union' was foisted on us by stealth is also very worrying to me.

Thank you for posting your views so thoughtfully and clearly. I am also voting Leave. :T

Generali

wymondham wrote: »

As the majority of those on this board seem to be in the Remain camp I thought I'd post this so you can see why a normal, middle/working class bloke with a young family feels the only voting option is out.

I've read with interest lots of differing opinions on the EU vote. I've tried to see past the fluff from both sides and try to see why different people/organisations have the view they do. On the whole I've noticed those I talk to generally when out and about are of the same or similar opinions I have whereas businesses tend to favour Remain (and some helpfully informing their staff about this also!).

My main two main reasons are:

The EU is un-democratic.

UK citizens can't effect change or vote out those in Brussels. Despite being told otherwise, this isn't really possible when all major parties I can vote for here are in favour of the EU. I consider it vital to be able to vote out those in power (directly). If one of the major parties had a different policy then things might be different.

Immigration.

I have real concerns about this. The problem is if we have it running at the current rate or higher, with those people coming in not necessarily offering anything of value to the economy or society then we are building up a massive social problem which cannot be undone. We can't fix this later - once the problem is here it is with us forever. This is not like a bad political policy that the next party in can undo or repeal. Those coming to this country must bring skills which are needed and be able to speak English so to permit integration. The Australian points system is a good example for us.

As the EU is pro moving more powers to Brussels and for free movement without borders I cannot vote for it regardless of all other arguments or points of view as without a free self Governing and secure country we have nothing, regardless of how rich we are or how well our pensions perform. I now have an opportunity (my one and only opportunity) to make a positive change.

Witnessing David Cameron's inability to win any meaningful concessions with the EU when we had our strongest hand and they knew the outcome would be a referendum speaks volumes. Europe does not care about us, or care for us, but does however like our hefty contributions. We will become more and more insignificant as our identity is swallowed up in the EU machine. We are kidding ourselves if we think the EU will modernise and reform, indeed I think if we stay in we will witness integration speeding up.

I know there are lots of reasons to stay, given mostly from big business, some economists, most politicians and others who equally benefit being in the EU. Lots of intelligent people have stated some very good reasons on this board, and I'm sure they are correct (all relating to finance), but ALL of these amount to nothing to me due to the above..

I'm in no doubt that we'll face an economic shock if we leave, but I think this has been overstated and we as a country can get through it - coming out much stronger and in a far better position than we are now.

I'm surprised how I feel as I've never felt so passionately about a subject before, especially a political one! I think it is mostly due to me thinking about my Children and what the UK will be like for them if we stay in.

That's it....

As a Remainiac I disagree with your points.

1. I don't believe the EU is undemocratic as it is really a collection of the decisions of the democratic countries that are members of the EU. It's pretty hard for some Eurocrat to run off and start making serious decisions that impact on people's day-to-day lives. In fact I believe the Standing Orders put into most UK legislation are far more undemocratic than the EU.

2. Even if there is a problem with immigration, which I don't think there is but completely accept that many do, then I don't believe that quitting the EU will 'solve' it. Australia, which people point to as the way forward, has much more rigid rules on migration and yet has higher rates of migration than the UK.

What the Aussie rules do is leave people open to exploitation for example 7-11 forced students to work over their allowed 20 hours/wk with unpaid overtime in breech of minimum wage laws. They then threatened to tell immigration authorities about this breech and have then deported. As a result, students were being paid for 20 hours a week at the minimum wage and then working 60-70 hours.

I have no belief that leaving the EU will reduce immigration in the short or long term.

Moby

The working people like your family will suffer most from Brexit. The instability that leaving the EU will cause will lead to liquidity drying up, foreign companies who currently buy UK products switching to our EU competitors, and workers' rights being eroded by successive Tory governments - all of which will lead to even more job losses, higher unemployment, and greater economic depression for those areas currently suffering. In this scenario, the issue of immigrants 'stealing' our jobs will no longer be relevant because there won't be any jobs left. Compare the UK to the rest of Europe and we are actually doing okay - the blame for any current woes does not lie at the door of the EU but at the Tory government and to some extent the last Labour government. Blair chose to open the border to East Europe and the current Gov. have not reduced non EU immigration. Also last night even Gove said a Brexiteer Govmt wouldnt even be able to start reducing immigration until 2020. If the working class Brexit supporters are really worried about immigration and their futures they should focus their ire on the present regime, not that of Brussels.

wymondham

Generali wrote: »

As a Remainiac I disagree with your points.

1. I don't believe the EU is undemocratic as it is really a collection of the decisions of the democratic countries that are members of the EU. It's pretty hard for some Eurocrat to run off and start making serious decisions that impact on people's day-to-day lives. In fact I believe the Standing Orders put into most UK legislation are far more undemocratic than the EU.

2. Even if there is a problem with immigration, which I don't think there is but completely accept that many do, then I don't believe that quitting the EU will 'solve' it. Australia, which people point to as the way forward, has much more rigid rules on migration and yet has higher rates of migration than the UK.

What the Aussie rules do is leave people open to exploitation for example 7-11 forced students to work over their allowed 20 hours/wk with unpaid overtime in breech of minimum wage laws. They then threatened to tell immigration authorities about this breech and have then deported. As a result, students were being paid for 20 hours a week at the minimum wage and then working 60-70 hours.

I have no belief that leaving the EU will reduce immigration in the short or long term.

thanks for the reply.

How can the EU be democratic when all parties here support it? I have no means of voting against any EU policy..

I know it wont solve the immigration issue immediately, but it puts into place the means our Government can at least regain control of our borders in the future - it gives us future choices we wont otherwise have.

Nothing is perfect, but at least the Australian model tries to address a problem.

Moby

Your mistake imo is to see the EU as a whole entity which has total unanimity. There are as many ranges/nuances of opinion in the EU as there are in any national Govmt. You vote for your MEP, (the Parliament). The Council of Ministers is made up of ministers appointed by the member Govmts.....who of course we vote in at General Elections. Commissioners are the EU's Civil Servants again appointed by the member Governments again voted in by us at elections. There is a distance and I agree that not many can name the top Commissioners but for me I feel more represented by them than I do by the H of Lords.

mwpt

wymondham wrote: »

I'm surprised how I feel as I've never felt so passionately about a subject before, especially a political one! I think it is mostly due to me thinking about my Children and what the UK will be like for them if we stay in.

Most people under 40 will be voting to stay in. The children you're voting on behalf of, they mostly want to stay in. When these younger people get up and go about their days, they don't walk, drive or commute to work thinking how bad their life is because the UK couldn't lower VAT on a sanitary product or how bendy their bananas in their bag are. All they know is a UK that has prospered inside the EU and want this to continue.

It is mostly the older folk voting out, for reasons that you stated above, which in almost every practical sense make very little difference to most people's lives.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

As a Remainiac I disagree with your points.

1. I don't believe the EU is undemocratic as it is really a collection of the decisions of the democratic countries that are members of the EU. It's pretty hard for some Eurocrat to run off and start making serious decisions that impact on people's day-to-day lives. In fact I believe the Standing Orders put into most UK legislation are far more undemocratic than the EU.

2. Even if there is a problem with immigration, which I don't think there is but completely accept that many do, then I don't believe that quitting the EU will 'solve' it. Australia, which people point to as the way forward, has much more rigid rules on migration and yet has higher rates of migration than the UK.

What the Aussie rules do is leave people open to exploitation for example 7-11 forced students to work over their allowed 20 hours/wk with unpaid overtime in breech of minimum wage laws. They then threatened to tell immigration authorities about this breech and have then deported. As a result, students were being paid for 20 hours a week at the minimum wage and then working 60-70 hours.

I have no belief that leaving the EU will reduce immigration in the short or long term.

I see you think Aus has some problems with it's immigration system.

Is there a general groundswell to resolve this by enlisting 27 'local' countries to decide your policy for you?

mwpt

wymondham wrote: »

thanks for the reply.

How can the EU be democratic when all parties here support it? I have no means of voting against any EU policy..

Completely untrue. You can vote for UKIP.

You mistake what democracy is. The democracy you should be familiar with is voting in a government who then make decisions on your behalf. You do not get to vote or influence many decisions at all. If you are one of those who voted Green Party, how democratic does the UK feel to you under your judgement system of the EU being undemocratic?