The EU: IN or OUT?

Scarpacci

Chickabiddybex wrote: »

Talking of "nothing concrete" I'm currently watching Boris Johnson on TV saying if we leave we get an Australian style immigration system. He has no way of making that happen! It's up to our parliament. He may want to implement that but so what, he has no power to do it. Parliament does. And they won't. They believe immigration is good and an open border is a small price to pay for access to the single market. So if we leave, the 450 MPs who are pro EU will sign us up to Schengen.

Can't believe the cheek of someone to just say "we will do this if we leave" when he has no more say on the matter than you or I.

Is that a reason to stay though? A referendum like this can by definition only deliver a binary option on one particular issue. So we're counting on the current elected government or the next, should a new election be required, to act on the public's wishes. That is neither a reason to or a reason not to vote for a particular side.

Voting leave will begin a process where British public's representatives in Parliament will have to work towards a solution given what the British people say on Thursday. An Australian points system is a possibility that has long been discussed in Britain and could gain support if there's a clear national mood to limit immigration and leave the EU. We can only find out if we vote Leave, when we'll finally get a chance to decide our future. That will involve many choices which we can't completely have sown up yet.

Chickabiddybex

It has been discussed, yes. But it isn't wanted by the majority of our MPs. And I highly doubt the EU would let us into the single market without an open border. I just cannot see a scenario where it would happen.
I mean, look at how we deal with non EU immigration now! No Aussie points system is there? And no EU to blame for not having it.

bigadaj

Chickabiddybex wrote: »

It has been discussed, yes. But it isn't wanted by the majority of our MPs. And I highly doubt the EU would let us into the single market without an open border. I just cannot see a scenario where it would happen.
I mean, look at how we deal with non EU immigration now! No Aussie points system is there? And no EU to blame for not having it.

There are many angles to the debate with pros and cons on both sides.

There is a points based system for non eu migration, as to whether it is being applied well is of course a different matter.

But taking immigration as a sole issue, and it is a big issue for many people then the remain campaign are struggling. An immigration system you have control over is obviously better than one which you don't, and I haven't seen a rational argument against that.

Whether the system is applied correctly would be seen, but control has to be a benefit, even if the actual outcome is that you realise that you might actually need immigration to maintain a healthy economy.

JohnRo

It's window dressing and I noticed Gove back sliding on this issue today and desperately trying to distance himself from the jingoism in the leave campaign.

It doesn't sit well, after the silence during the many weeks of hyperbole aimed at the army of St. George's cross waving brexiteers who've been energised by the xenophobic rhetoric of the leavers.

How disappointed will they be to discover little if anything much will change and that there is no plan to man the barricades atop the white cliffs of Dover from where the purging of 'foreigners' will then get under way in earnest on Friday morning.

Pincher

This is why kings of old went to soothsayers and chicken entrail readers. Political marriages, military alliances, trade pacts, nothing is certain and forever.

With democracy, they need to pretend they are doing things by the will of the people, but to make major policy decisions based on fuzzy mass psychology is just crazy.

To leave on a 51:49 vote is beyond crazy. All that work to exit, when 49%, i.e. HALF the electorate don't want to!? They need to have a proper margin to instigate a LEAVE process.

uk1

Pincher wrote: »

This is why kings of old went to soothsayers and chicken entrail readers. Political marriages, military alliances, trade pacts, nothing is certain and forever.

With democracy, they need to pretend they are doing things by the will of the people, but to make major policy decisions based on fuzzy mass psychology is just crazy.

To leave on a 51:49 vote is beyond crazy. All that work to exit, when 49%, i.e. HALF the electorate don't want to!? They need to have a proper margin to instigate a LEAVE process.

Presumably you feel that way because you are strongly in favour of remaining.

You could argue the absolute opposite if you were strongly in favour of leaving in the case of a 51/49% vote in favour of remaining. There has to be rules and those are the rules.

By the way... I don't wish to wind you up ... but it isn't 51/49% ... ie tens or hundreds of thousands of votes that decide ........it is in fact 50% plus one single vote.

A single person could decide. That I am afraid is democracy.

Jeff

Chickabiddybex

There are many angles to the debate with pros and cons on both sides.

There is a points based system for non eu migration, as to whether it is being applied well is of course a different matter.

But taking immigration as a sole issue, and it is a big issue for many people then the remain campaign are struggling. An immigration system you have control over is obviously better than one which you don't, and I haven't seen a rational argument against that.

Whether the system is applied correctly would be seen, but control has to be a benefit, even if the actual outcome is that you realise that you might actually need immigration to maintain a healthy economy.

The point I'm making isn't against having control of our borders. I'm saying people are voting leave in order to have more control. But in reality we will lose even more control if we leave!

It's ridiculous it really is. And I'm not surprised. Did you know it's not illegal at all for either side to simply lie in their leaflets, speeches and posters etc? No accountability as usual.

bigadaj

Chickabiddybex wrote: »

The point I'm making isn't against having control of our borders. I'm saying people are voting leave in order to have more control. But in reality we will lose even more control if we leave!

It's ridiculous it really is. And I'm not surprised. Did you know it's not illegal at all for either side to simply lie in their leaflets, speeches and posters etc? No accountability as usual.

Both sides are laughable, and they are lying, but it's politicians so what do you expect.

I don't understand your point about less control though, maybe you could expand on that?

Dird

Chickabiddybex wrote: »

The point I'm making isn't against having control of our borders. I'm saying people are voting leave in order to have more control. But in reality we will lose even more control if we leave!
It's ridiculous it really is.

What's ridiculous is your quoted statement. If USA and Mexico entered a political union like the EU I bet my house on the fact USA would have more immigration and less control than they have now.
Your statement is just illogical. Give up control to have more control.
We lose control of what Poland does and who they let in. We gain control of what Britain does and who we let in.

DiggerUK

A world without border restrictions is a world I want to see.
Borders are now a waste of space, and expense, as evidenced by a million or more a year simply ignoring them, and walking in to other countries. Brexit or Bremain, that will not change..._