Penalty fare - first time ever!!!

andygb

esuhl wrote: »

All I can say is "good luck!". It sounds like you're in the clear, but these appeals processes are designed to be inflexible and assume guilt over innocence.

I totally agree. In their reply which I received yesterday, they made no attempt to reason why they had denied my appeal.

gazapc

You shouldn't have to delay your journey because of the broken machine and lack of facilities to buy a ticket until your destination.


I would recommend going to a dedicated forum, a Google for 'Rail disputes and prosecutions' will take you to the right place. Post every detail and you should get some helpful (and technically correct) responses with some previous examples.

chuckley

if there's no working ticket machine or kiosk open at the time, you shoudn't get a fine. So I'm surprised the appeal was thrown out.

surely they could verify there was no machine at said station?

has you tried to 'buy a ticket' at the changing station, you still would've been fined as yu would've needed to exit without a ticket in order to buy ticket from there.

I'd let them take me to court.

andygb

chuckley wrote: »

surely they could verify there was no machine at said station?

has you tried to 'buy a ticket' at the changing station, you still would've been fined as yu would've needed to exit without a ticket in order to buy ticket from there.

I'd let them take me to court.

It would be very easy to verify that there has NEVER been a ticket machine at my station, and that the permit to travel machine has been out of order for at least six weeks, but I have to question if they are really interested in looking into FACTS which may stop them trying to extort money from innocent rail passengers.
Your second point is very valid, and one which I was thinking about, because they have contradicted themselves. There is absolutely no difference between me going outside the barriers at the connecting station and going outside the barriers at the destination station - they both involve travelling without a ticket.

martin2345uk

Rail UK forum has a dedicated "disputes and prosecutions" section - I can't reccommend it enough, posters on there have a great deal of experience with this type of thing and will give you the best advice you can get.

HappyMJ

andygb wrote: »

Thanks for that, I really appreciate it.
The first thing I did when approaching the barriers was to get my wallet out and ask for a return fare.
Most of the time there is a conductor available, and as I said earlier, I always sit next to the conductor's cab at the rear of the train.
If I had missed the connection, then I would have had to wait 30 minutes for the next train.

Thanks for the update.

30 minutes is fair enough as was said earlier if it was just 5 minutes then you wouldn't have a case but 30 minutes is too long.

If you don't pay the penalty they can prosecute in court...of course you have a fair and reasonable defence so it might be unlikely that they would do that once they look at the actual circumstances properly.

andygb

I sent an email to "Transport Focus" yesterday (they are a consumer group who deal with this sort of thing), together with the copy of my letter plus PDF copy of penalty fare notice and train bought tickets from previous days, as well as copies of both letters which the Enforcment organisation sent me.
The fact that the enforcement letter did not answer any of my concerns/reasons, tells me that they are not ready to listen to anyone.

magyar

I have a feeling the customer complains bit of many TOCs is outsourced, so you just get a 'standard' response.

If you escalate then you might get a better response.

yorkie2

andygb wrote: »

However, my station does not have a ticket machine, and the permit to travel machine has been out of order for at least two months. There is an option to buy a ticket on the train - IF - the conductor decides to get out of their cab to sell tickets.

I don't see how you can be liable to a Penalty Fare

andygb wrote: »

On this occasion the conductor was nowhere to be seen, and when I reached the station where I catch my connecting train, it was already pulling in to the opposite station so I had to run to get on it.

You are not required to delay your journey, so you are entitled to board that train.

andygb wrote: »

When I finally got to my stop, I approached the guys at the barriers and explained that I needed a return fare, and they started quizzing me (they were it turns our, Revenue Protection officiers who were not aware of the difficulties travelling from my station), asking why I hadn't bought a ticket, or a permit to travel or a weekly season.

The rail industry does employ some complete and utter scumbags in "Revenue Protection" jobs notably in the London & Southeast area.

andygb wrote: »

They then decided to issue a penalty far notice, which I appealed by post last week.
However the appeal was thrown out, simply stating that I failed to buy a valid ticket for the journey:mad::mad::mad::mad:

The "independent" appeals body is owned by Southeastern! So, of course they cannot be relied upon.

andygb wrote: »

So, to sum up.

If you cannot buy a ticket because Southeastern or for that matter any rail company decide not to instal a ticket office, or fail make sure that the permit to travel machine is working OK, do you simply go home because the station is incapable of providing a service which is legal for passengers to travel on?

Southeastern see passengers as an inconvenience, so yes they'd probably want you to do that!

andygb wrote: »

I have now contacted the Transport Focus group to see if they can help me, because this is clearly a ludicrous situation.

I hope they agree to help, if they refuse, please do contact me if you want me to talk to them on your behalf.

HappyMJ wrote: »

You're supposed to do everything you can to get a ticket before travel. You should have purchased a ticket at the station where your connecting train was waiting. .

Rubbish!

andygb

yorkie2 wrote: »

I don't see how you can be liable to a Penalty Fare

You are not required to delay your journey, so you are entitled to board that train.

The rail industry does employ some complete and utter scumbags in "Revenue Protection" jobs notably in the London & Southeast area.

The "independent" appeals body is owned by Southeastern! So, of course they cannot be relied upon.

Southeastern see passengers as an inconvenience, so yes they'd probably want you to do that!

I hope they agree to help, if they refuse, please do contact me if you want me to talk to them on your behalf.
Rubbish!

Cheers, the clock is ticking, and I have not been emailed back, so may well contact you.
I am not going to give in on this one.