Penalty fare - first time ever!!!

andygb

Just over a week ago, I got a penalty fare for the first time in my life.
I am on a course at the moment, just two days a week, and the journey is only about ten miles. My fares are refunded so there is absolutely no reason for me to indulge in a bit of "scummy" fare dodging.
However, my station does not have a ticket machine, and the permit to travel machine has been out of order for at least two months. There is an option to buy a ticket on the train - IF - the conductor decides to get out of their cab to sell tickets.
On this occasion the conductor was nowhere to be seen, and when I reached the station where I catch my connecting train, it was already pulling in to the opposite station so I had to run to get on it.
When I finally got to my stop, I approached the guys at the barriers and explained that I needed a return fare, and they started quizzing me (they were it turns our, Revenue Protection officiers who were not aware of the difficulties travelling from my station), asking why I hadn't bought a ticket, or a permit to travel or a weekly season.
They then decided to issue a penalty far notice, which I appealed by post last week.
However the appeal was thrown out, simply stating that I failed to buy a valid ticket for the journey:mad::mad::mad::mad:

So, to sum up.

If you cannot buy a ticket because Southeastern or for that matter any rail company decide not to instal a ticket office, or fail make sure that the permit to travel machine is working OK, do you simply go home because the station is incapable of providing a service which is legal for passengers to travel on?

I have now contacted the Transport Focus group to see if they can help me, because this is clearly a ludicrous situation.

HappyMJ

andygb wrote: »

Just over a week ago, I got a penalty fare for the first time in my life.
I am on a course at the moment, just two days a week, and the journey is only about ten miles. My fares are refunded so there is absolutely no reason for me to indulge in a bit of "scummy" fare dodging.
However, my station does not have a ticket machine, and the permit to travel machine has been out of order for at least two months. There is an option to buy a ticket on the train - IF - the conductor decides to get out of their cab to sell tickets.
On this occasion the conductor was nowhere to be seen, and when I reached the station where I catch my connecting train, it was already pulling in to the opposite station so I had to run to get on it.
When I finally got to my stop, I approached the guys at the barriers and explained that I needed a return fare, and they started quizzing me (they were it turns our, Revenue Protection officiers who were not aware of the difficulties travelling from my station), asking why I hadn't bought a ticket, or a permit to travel or a weekly season.
They then decided to issue a penalty far notice, which I appealed by post last week.
However the appeal was thrown out, simply stating that I failed to buy a valid ticket for the journey:mad::mad::mad::mad:

So, to sum up.

If you cannot buy a ticket because Southeastern or for that matter any rail company decide not to instal a ticket office, or fail make sure that the permit to travel machine is working OK, do you simply go home because the station is incapable of providing a service which is legal for passengers to travel on?

I have now contacted the Transport Focus group to see if they can help me, because this is clearly a ludicrous situation.

You're supposed to do everything you can to get a ticket before travel. You should have purchased a ticket at the station where your connecting train was waiting. I know you would have missed the train though which would make the non-availability of the permit machine unfair on you as it would have meant you would have been delayed through no fault of your own. Maybe your appeal letter wasn't worded in the right way...I'd wait for the responses you get here and appeal again. I wouldn't pay the penalty.

andygb

HappyMJ wrote: »

You're supposed to do everything you can to get a ticket before travel. You should have purchased a ticket at the station where your connecting train was waiting. I know you would have missed the train though which would make the non-availability of the permit machine unfair on you as it would have meant you would have been delayed through no fault of your own. Maybe your appeal letter wasn't worded in the right way...I'd wait for the responses you get here and appeal again. I wouldn't pay the penalty.

I haven't paid the penalty yet.
There is a rumour locally that they are trying to shut down our local station, so is it beyond the realms of possibility that they are trying to upset passengers so that they move away or find alternative means of transport.
The station staff this week (at my destination station) were pretty surprised about what happened, because they know the situation at my station, and they said that we are not being given a fair chance to buy a ticket.:(

esuhl

HappyMJ wrote: »

You're supposed to do everything you can to get a ticket before travel. You should have purchased a ticket at the station where your connecting train was waiting. I know you would have missed the train...

No way would I deliberately delay myself to make up for a train company's incompetence.

It doesn't help now, but I would have refused to have paid the penalty fare and not have given my details.

andygb

esuhl wrote: »

No way would I deliberately delay myself to make up for a train company's incompetence. Exactly how I felt and still feel about the situation.

It doesn't help now, but I would have refused to have paid the penalty fare and not have given my details.

I feel the same way as you.
I have not yet paid the penalty fare, but had to give my details, because I wouldn't have been able to leave the station. There were two enforcement officers originally and then a third turned up:(

magyar

I agree it's completely ludicrous. You clearly used reasonable endeavours to either buy a ticket or a get a permit to travel. It's not your fault that the machine wasn't working, and that there was no conductor on the train.

The rules say you have to buy a full ticket as soon as reasonably practicable. It is clearly not reasonable for you to have to miss a connecting train (I am assuming there wasn't another train 5 mins later, in which case that would not be the case). So you did what I think is entirely reasonable and went to get a ticket when you got off that second train.

I think you were right to give your details: it is actually an offence not to do so, but also I would not pay the Penalty Fare. If you can share the wording of your appeal, we can try to help here.

magyar

Have had another look at the rules: I don't think it's relevant or important that you didn't buy a ticket when you connected. The 'reasonably practicable' gives you a pretty good defence here.

Where you broke the letter of the law is that you boarded a train without either a ticket or a permit to travel. Technically the TOC could claim that you always had the option not to travel at all. However that's a rather ridiculous argument.

What I would do is go and take a photo of the broken PTT machine, preferably with timestamp. It doesn't quite prove it wasn't working on the day in the question but it helps. Then challenge the TOC to prove that the machine was working that day, and that you could have bought one.

esuhl

magyar wrote: »

Where you broke the letter of the law is that you boarded a train without either a ticket or a permit to travel. Technically the TOC could claim that you always had the option not to travel at all. However that's a rather ridiculous argument.

I thought the law was that you had to buy a ticket when the facilities are available for you to do so.

andygb wrote: »

I... had to give my details, because I wouldn't have been able to leave the station.

You can't be imprisoned on a station. They can either let you go, call the police, or arrest you themselves.

Personally, I would have offered to buy the appropriate tickets, refused to pay a penalty fare, refused to provide my details, and have tried to leave the station. If I was prevented from doing so, I would have called 999 to ask for assistance.

Sorry again that it's too late for all this now, but sometimes (when you know you're in the right), you've got to stick to your guns.

(You probably should have tried to buy a ticket on the train, however... That's the only thing I can think of that might weaken your defence.)

magyar

I have just checked, and the rules are clear.

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid
for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the
circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply.

Where there are no facilities for buying a ticket at the
station, tickets will be available for sale during or at the end of your journey.

If you travel in a train
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and
39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special
terms unless either:

(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open
and
there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines
were in full working order
and
in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel
issuing machine was in full working order

You are absolutely in the clear. Collect as much evidence as you can that the PTT machine wasn't working. And don't pay the Penalty.

andygb

magyar wrote: »

I have just checked, and the rules are clear.



You are absolutely in the clear. Collect as much evidence as you can that the PTT machine wasn't working. And don't pay the Penalty.

Thanks for that, I really appreciate it.
The first thing I did when approaching the barriers was to get my wallet out and ask for a return fare.
Most of the time there is a conductor available, and as I said earlier, I always sit next to the conductor's cab at the rear of the train.
If I had missed the connection, then I would have had to wait 30 minutes for the next train.

esuhl

andygb wrote: »

Thanks for that, I really appreciate it.
The first thing I did when approaching the barriers was to get my wallet out and ask for a return fare.
Most of the time there is a conductor available, and as I said earlier, I always sit next to the conductor's cab at the rear of the train.
If I had missed the connection, then I would have had to wait 30 minutes for the next train.

All I can say is "good luck!". It sounds like you're in the clear, but these appeals processes are designed to be inflexible and assume guilt over innocence.