Penalty fare - first time ever!!!

Quentin

snae wrote: »

Very odd. I've been let off numerous times for this when I used to commute to school. ......

May partly depend on the attitude test which from some of the attitude shown here there could have been a fail!

daveyjp

Thread is now live on railuk with responses.

magyar

daveyjp wrote: »

Thread is now live on railuk with responses.

Woohoo! The experts agree with us non-experts :-)

zenmaster

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

... I've never been in your position before ...

I have.

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

(PS "the conductor was nowhere to be seen". Did you actually try to seek out the conductor to buy a ticket or did you just stay in your seat? That presumably would have been the earliest opportunity to buy a ticket and evidence your good intentions. I don't suppose real fare dodgers go out of their way to find a conductor)

This is exactly what the OP should have done.

It's not hard to determine the conductor's location. They either stand on the station outside their carriage or lean out of the window.

So, you board the train, make your way to that carriage and, once the train is safely under way, knock on the window and ask to buy a ticket.

OP also travelled on a second train, apparently without any effort to buy a ticket.

It doesn't look good.

Manxman_in_exile

Post #64


I'm not sure the experts do agree with the non-experts. I think they are saying that the OP should have at least paid the ticket fare before now.


I think they are also unsure as to whether the penalty fare is or is not valid in the circumstances. I think they are also indicating that the OP may have been justified in refusing to pay the penalty there and then, but that the sensible thing to do would have been to pay it and then make an appeal.


As DaveNewcastle says (I think) it's a question of risk. Pay the penalty with the opportunity of appealing against it afterwards, or refuse to pay and run the risk of being prosecuted and convicted with a much larger cost.


I think I know what I'd do.

magyar

I can't see anything which supports your first two sentences.

They acknowledge he's tried to pay the right fare and the TOC has refused to accept it. I still don't understand how you think you can 'pay the fare' at this point.

They also acknowledge that the PF was invalidly issued, and that the 'interconnection time' is completely irrelevant.

The key question - and this has been highlighted on here - is how reasonable is it that no other attempt was made to buy a ticket. I personally agree it's unusual not to be able to find the conductor, but ultimately we don't know the details.

As post #5 on the Rail Forum says: simply paying the PF or the fare is not necessarily possible.

Manxman_in_exile

andygb - I've just re-read this post because I thought I must have missed something.


You originally said here the conductor was "nowhere to be seen" but on the other forum you say they "stayed in their cab (they were on their mobile)". You also say on that forum that you sit by their cab when you travel.


As zenmaster above suggests, did you try to attract their attention to buy a ticket at the first opportunity or did you decide, for whatever reason(s), not to and chance not having a ticket?


As I understand it you have still neither paid for the journey (which you are obliged to pay for) nor paid the penalty fare. Please put me right if I am wrong.


One point in your favour is that your study travel is re-imbursed. But how do you reclaim that? Do you have to provide receipts/tickets or do you get an allowance? If you have to provide proof of your study travel expenses that might help establish that you, personally, had nothing to gain from evading paying.

Manxman_in_exile

Magyar - yeah, I see what you're saying but I'm ultra cautious and would always prefer to avoid any possibility of leaving myself open to a possible criminal prosecution, however remote. If I were in the OP's position I'd have paid the penalty and appealed against it subsequently. I'd either be confident that I was in the right and would get it back or I wouldn't be, in which case I'd accept the penalty as a lesson learned.


I'm not sure if you've actually read the OP's post on the other forum but it gives a different version about the availability of the train conductor than it does here. Was the conductor "nowhere to be seen" or were they in their cab on their mobile? Either they were nowhere to be seen or they were plainly visible in front of him/her. Which are we to accept?


No doubt I'm paranoid and should don a tin-foil hat, but do you think train companies might occasionally look at forums like this/these and compare the facts that are posted?

magyar

I have to confess I've learned quite a lot from this. Most importantly, that a 'Penalty Fare' is not an allegation of attempted fare-dodging: if you do that then you can be prosecuted. The 'Penalty Fare' is for people who had no intention of dodging the fare, but just didn't apply the right process.

I do also agree the OP has given different accounts on the two forums, not sure why. I think it's pretty unlikely that the TOCs review this forum: they might though.

I've had parking fines for example, where I have simply ignored what I knew was an invalid ticket, knowing that the 'appeal' process was just a sham.

Would I pay it myself in this instance? Dunno. Maybe. I would know whether I'd made best attempts to buy another ticket - if the OP genuinely believes he tried reasonably hard, then I'd say don't pay it. If there is doubt in his mind, I'd try to pay the PF.

(An interesting note is that that may no longer be an option).

Manxman_in_exile

Yes - a penalty fare is not an allegation of fare-dodging; it's a sur-charge for not having a valid ticket, which you should have. And there may be perfectly good reasons for not having one.


If I'd been in the OP's position I'd have gone out of my way to be seen to be buying a ticket. I'm not sure that waiting for the conductor to come out of their carriage meets this.


The OP here says that the problem is well known at his/her destination station. No doubt his/her credit/debit card statements, together with evidence from whomever is paying for the study travel, will establish no intent to avoid payment on their part.