Penalty fare - first time ever!!!

andygb

I have received a reply to my latest letter to the Appeal Service.
They have now changed tack considerably, but have repeated the bit about adequate ticketing facilities being available to all passengers (which is not true in my case).
They are now saying that the connecting train which I caught, is not a "valid connection", because it's departure time is too close to the arrival time of my train - 2 minutes difference - and that I should not have caught that train, but purchased my ticket from the "interchange station", and then caught the next connection which would be 24 minutes after my arrival time at the interchange station.
I have never heard the term "valid connection", so I can only assume that it is used in times of "last chance saloon" desperation, in order for them to attempt to prove their case?
Maybe they should put a clear sign up at my station, instructing all passengers who cannot get a ticket from the conductor, to miss their connection and buy their ticket from the "interchange station".

Hasbeen

As previous poster suggested have you asked for advice at the railforums site?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152

Would hope you get this resolved quickly.

As there does appear to be people on there, being prosecuted/ending up with criminal records for failing to purchase tickets etc

Good luck.

tomtontom

andygb wrote: »

I have received a reply to my latest letter to the Appeal Service.
They have now changed tack considerably, but have repeated the bit about adequate ticketing facilities being available to all passengers (which is not true in my case).
They are now saying that the connecting train which I caught, is not a "valid connection", because it's departure time is too close to the arrival time of my train - 2 minutes difference - and that I should not have caught that train, but purchased my ticket from the "interchange station", and then caught the next connection which would be 24 minutes after my arrival time at the interchange station.
I have never heard the term "valid connection", so I can only assume that it is used in times of "last chance saloon" desperation, in order for them to attempt to prove their case?
Maybe they should put a clear sign up at my station, instructing all passengers who cannot get a ticket from the conductor, to miss their connection and buy their ticket from the "interchange station".

Minimum interchange times are published by National Rail. If a connection time is not listed then a time of 5 minutes should be assumed.

Their argument, at least on this point, is valid.

magyar

tomtontom wrote: »

Minimum interchange times are published by National Rail. If a connection time is not listed then a time of 5 minutes should be assumed.

Their argument, at least on this point, is valid.

It's valid but more than a little pedantic. This is meant to be used in scenarios where someone tries to get compensation for missing a connection that they hadn't left sufficient time for.

Given that the OP was able to make the connection and then approached to try to buy a ticket at the other end, this feels unreasonable to me.

magyar

Firstly, I do think you should be asking this question on a rail forum as there are real experts on there - however in a sense this is an area for non-experts, if that makes sense.

There is nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which refers to minimum connection time.

It simply says you need to buy another ticket as soon as reasonably practicable.

The law would define that as something that a 'normal person acting reasonably would do under the same circumstances'. Not 'a person who is completely au fait with the intricacies of the rail laws'.

I think you acted reasonably, and within the spirit of the law, by approaching at the barrier and asking to pay the fare. I would have done what you did, as would have most people I would imagine.

That said, I am now thinking it might be sensible to pay the penalty fare and continue your appeal that way.

wealdroam

Hasbeen wrote: »

As previous poster suggested have you asked for advice at the railforums site?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152

No, the OP has not yet done that.

andygb

wealdroam wrote: »

No, the OP has not yet done that.

No, because although I have registered with them, and followed the link in their return email to me, nobody has got back to me - something about being in a "moderators queue".
Once that is done I will be able to post something.

So, what is your interest in this, are you stalking me, or do you perhaps work for the enforcement team/penalty fares office?

Manxman_in_exile

OP - I think you accept that you travelled on a train without a valid ticket for that journey. But you did so honestly with no intention of avoiding paying the fare. Despite that you still do not seem to have paid the fare in question. You say you've "offered" to pay it, but you don't need to offer it because you already owe them the fair. The train company is entitled to it. I think that by still not paying the original fare you are not advancing your case.


I've never been in your position before so I'm interested to know how you go about buying a valid ticket for a journey you've just made. Are you saying that after you refused to pay the penalty the inspectors in some way prevented you from buying a ticket on the platform? Did you not have another opportunity to buy a ticket before leaving the station? I think the problem is the train company can't see inside your head to know your intentions. They can only infer them from your actions and they may feel that your actions were (and are) in some way similar to those of people deliberately avoiding payment. I've no doubt you've not acted dishonestly but the train company may think differently.


I see that Magyar is now advocating paying the penalty too.


(PS "the conductor was nowhere to be seen". Did you actually try to seek out the conductor to buy a ticket or did you just stay in your seat? That presumably would have been the earliest opportunity to buy a ticket and evidence your good intentions. I don't suppose real fare dodgers go out of their way to find a conductor)

magyar

To be clear, I still don't know what you mean by 'pay the fare'. You can't just buy a ticket for a historic journey. You can send them a cheque, but that's no different to writing to them and saying you agree to pay it - which he has.

I only advocate paying because it seems the train company may have a silly loophole, and on that basis it's not worth risking losing.

We should remember here that the issue is he didn't have a Permit to Travel. All that does is show WHERE you got on - if he'd have had one of those, I bet he'd have had no issue at all, they'd just have taken the fare. So it is *very* harsh of them to say he should have bought a ticket in between stations.

snae

Very odd. I've been let off numerous times for this when I used to commute to school. Although that may be because they knew where I was coming from, that the station had crap a machine and trusted me. Still, Chiltern Railwayers tend to be alot more friendlier than most rail staff. Been years since I've commuted, but I always get a friendly greeting whenever I do.