Penalty fare - first time ever!!!

esuhl

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

Yes - a penalty fare is not an allegation of fare-dodging; it's a sur-charge for not having a valid ticket, which you should have. And there may be perfectly good reasons for not having one.

It seems a bit unfair to be financially penalised when you have a perfectly good reason!

I'd also question whether the OP should have bought a ticket on the train. It's the only place I can see the case turning against him. It isn't always possible -- often the guard has no ticket machine, or is locked in the drivers' cab, or you have heavy/bulky luggage that cannot be left unattended, etc.

I also sympathise with the OP, as very often, when you try to buy a ticket on the train, they try to sell you a more expensive one and lie about the availability of other tickets. Demanding a refund for an incorrectly issued ticket on a train, when you need to get off immediately and have to delay the train doesn't go down very well. But they try it on because they're on commission.

Fortunately they've installed a ticket machine at the local station, now.

andygb

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

OP - I think you accept that you travelled on a train without a valid ticket for that journey. But you did so honestly with no intention of avoiding paying the fare. Despite that you still do not seem to have paid the fare in question. You say you've "offered" to pay it, but you don't need to offer it because you already owe them the fair. The train company is entitled to it. I think that by still not paying the original fare you are not advancing your case.


I've never been in your position before so I'm interested to know how you go about buying a valid ticket for a journey you've just made. Are you saying that after you refused to pay the penalty the inspectors in some way prevented you from buying a ticket on the platform? Did you not have another opportunity to buy a ticket before leaving the station? I think the problem is the train company can't see inside your head to know your intentions. They can only infer them from your actions and they may feel that your actions were (and are) in some way similar to those of people deliberately avoiding payment. I've no doubt you've not acted dishonestly but the train company may think differently.


I see that Magyar is now advocating paying the penalty too.


(PS "the conductor was nowhere to be seen". Did you actually try to seek out the conductor to buy a ticket or did you just stay in your seat? That presumably would have been the earliest opportunity to buy a ticket and evidence your good intentions. I don't suppose real fare dodgers go out of their way to find a conductor)

I don't really know where to begin with this post, except recommend that you read the OP again.
To make it very simple for you to understand, it is not and never has been (for 25 years) possible to buy a ticket from my station - no ticket machine/ticket office. The permit to travel machine has been out of order for nine weeks.
I always sit next to the cab where the conductor is, but on this occasion he chose not to get out, and when I looked in at the end of the journey he was on his mobile phone.

andygb

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

The OP here says that the problem is well known at his/her destination station. No doubt his/her credit/debit card statements, together with evidence from whomever is paying for the study travel, will establish no intent to avoid payment on their part.

I sent a scanned copy of my three previous return tickets, which I have to keep for the purposes of claiming back my expenses each day.
You seem very determined to show that I in some way cheated or didn't try hard enough to buy a ticket, when in fact it was the railway who have failed on this occasion.

andygb

magyar wrote: »

I have to confess I've learned quite a lot from this. Most importantly, that a 'Penalty Fare' is not an allegation of attempted fare-dodging: if you do that then you can be prosecuted. The 'Penalty Fare' is for people who had no intention of dodging the fare, but just didn't apply the right process.

I do also agree the OP has given different accounts on the two forums, not sure why. I think it's pretty unlikely that the TOCs review this forum: they might though.

I've had parking fines for example, where I have simply ignored what I knew was an invalid ticket, knowing that the 'appeal' process was just a sham.

Would I pay it myself in this instance? Dunno. Maybe. I would know whether I'd made best attempts to buy another ticket - if the OP genuinely believes he tried reasonably hard, then I'd say don't pay it. If there is doubt in his mind, I'd try to pay the PF.

(An interesting note is that that may no longer be an option).

How have I given two different accounts?

andygb

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

Magyar - yeah, I see what you're saying but I'm ultra cautious and would always prefer to avoid any possibility of leaving myself open to a possible criminal prosecution, however remote. If I were in the OP's position I'd have paid the penalty and appealed against it subsequently. I'd either be confident that I was in the right and would get it back or I wouldn't be, in which case I'd accept the penalty as a lesson learned.


I'm not sure if you've actually read the OP's post on the other forum but it gives a different version about the availability of the train conductor than it does here. Was the conductor "nowhere to be seen" or were they in their cab on their mobile? Either they were nowhere to be seen or they were plainly visible in front of him/her. Which are we to accept?


No doubt I'm paranoid and should don a tin-foil hat, but do you think train companies might occasionally look at forums like this/these and compare the facts that are posted?

A Quite simple one to answer.
You cannot see into the drivers/conductor's cab, and they didn't get out of the cab during my journey.
I saw him when I passed the cab at the end of the journey - I looked straight at him but he ignored me and was on his phone.
I suppose I could have rapped on the window, but I only had one or two minutes to get to the other platform to catch my connecting train.
Some of the conductors do their job, and immediately enter the carriage after the train has left my station to sell tickets, which is what they should do as they are well aware that passengers from my station cannot buy tickets before boarding the train.

andygb

I have just found this from the people who monitor our rail line.

On October 7th Penalty fares were introduced
and as a result it is now the responsibility of
passengers to ensure that before boarding
a train they have either a valid rail ticket or a
“Permit to Travel” obtained from the Permit
machine located at each station. Failure to be
able to present either when asked to do so by a
Rail Enforcement Officer can result in a Penalty
Fare (Minimum of £20) being charged.
The Permit machines will accept any amount
towards your fare, the value of which can
then be deducted from the cost of your ticket
purchased (within two hours) from the train
conductor or your destination station.

The last bit seems quite clear. It appears that the majority of stations on my line (I thought it was three or four) have no ticketing facilities.

El_Capitan

andygb, I just wanted to add, if your second appeal fails (which in my view would be unfair but you don't know how it will end) you will have to pay a higher penalty fare.

It's recommended to pay your penalty fare when appealing to keep costs down (as mentioned before). I think the appeals body and whoever collects the penalty fare are different entities, so the two processes do not go "together" if that makes sense.

You mentioned that you believe this would weaken your case - it doesn't. I have been been charged a penalty fare before, paid the fare, successfully appealed and got refunded. This was for different reasons to your own though.

Pay the fare and then you don't need to worry about it increasing, and can take all the time in the world over your appeal.

alisont

I do hope that you get answers and don't have to pay the penalty fare with this case.

I live in a small village where the booking office at the station is closed for 6 days at a time, the ticket machine after 2-3 days usually runs out of tickets.
I get a lift 2-3 days a week another train 2-3 days - so not worth getting a season ticket. I only travel one stop then have to move swiftly for my bus to work. It does worry me that I can't always buy a ticket and I can't always attract the attention of the guard - if 6 carriages I can't guarantee which one they will be in. Only going one stop for 3 minutes doesn't allow me time to search for a guard on a busy commuter train.
Several times I've been stopped by revenue inspectors on the way from the train to the ticket machine at the destination station - so far I feel I have talked my way politely out of the situation but I've been close to getting a penalty fare. I think I've avoided it as I take a dated/timed photo of the closed booking office and the broken ticket machine - they seem to agree with me then and let me buy my ticket.

I have once had a penalty fare - which was my fault - huge queue at the station and know if I'd have waited I'd have missed that train and my connection so left getting a ticket until the next station - big mistake and a costly £20 fine - I paid cash so they didn't take my details - think that's why I'm so paranoid about buying a ticket these days!

I would advise taking photos on any future trips where the office and machine are not available - I have found this seems to help when confronted by revenue inspectors.

andygb

Thanks alisont, I am still fighting this, and fingers crossed it looks as though it is going my way.
The admin charges are rising, but it seems that the railway is legally wrong - so here is hoping.

"I have once had a penalty fare - which was my fault - huge queue at the station and know if I'd have waited I'd have missed that train and my connection so left getting a ticket until the next station"

Apparently that is not your fault, as I have found out.

wealdroam

andygb wrote: »

Thanks alisont, I am still fighting this, and fingers crossed it looks as though it is going my way.
The admin charges are rising, but it seems that the railway is legally wrong - so here is hoping.

"I have once had a penalty fare - which was my fault - huge queue at the station and know if I'd have waited I'd have missed that train and my connection so left getting a ticket until the next station"

Apparently that is not your fault, as I have found out.

I think you'll find that in Alisont's case, as ticket selling facilities were available at his/her departure station, he/she is not in the same position you were in.

One is expected to buy a ticket at the first opportunity, and walking past an open ticket office and boarding a train is clearly not doing that.

There can be a mitigating case if the queue was exceptionally long, but not allowing enough time to buy a ticket before the train's departure is risky.