If we vote for Brexit what happens

Nick_C

cells wrote: »

open borders was a thing for most of the last 200 thousand years of modern human existence. its only really the last 0.1-0.2 thousand years where it was closed so we are going back to the norm over the next 0.1-0.2 thousand years

We may have had open borders, but you couldn't get very far on foot or on the back of a donkey. Mary and Joseph's flight to Egypt wasn't on an Airbus.

mayonnaise

Sapphire wrote: »

.
The population of London, for example, is much too high

CLAPTON wrote: »

no, it's no individuals fault that we have too many people in London/SE

Is the population of Shanghai too high?
Are there too many people in New York?

Nick_C

cells wrote: »

How long does it take a EU national living here to have the right to vote in the UK be it in a general election or this referendum?

antrobus wrote: »

As long as it takes them to complete their application for British citizenship, and for the authrorities to process it. Which I think is about six months, so it's probably a bit late now, since the referendum is in June.:)

Except those EU nationals from Cyprus, Ireland, and Malta, who have full voting rights already (along with, bizarrely, anyone from Rwanda or Mozambique who happens to be living here!)

kabayiri

Rinoa wrote: »

Hats off to Oz. They did all that by making their own laws, trading with who they wished and at the same time had full control over their borders.

Ok, so we went down the wrong road in 1974. But that's no reason to continue the same journey when we know it's a road to nowhere.

I think it's wider than that.

I'm not sure we have a vision for how we want the UK to look and feel in decades to come. Is it jobs and homes spread out across the country or super dense regions like an enlarged London? There might be a good argument for either.

Our support services seem to be reacting to demand, rather than investing to drive the demand in particular ways.

Someone in Peterborough the other night on radio said the town had "lost it's way". How can we know, if we don't know what the "way" should be?

CLAPTON

mayonnaise wrote: »

Is the population of Shanghai too high?
Are there too many people in New York?

I acknowledge that there are many people worse off than the people that live in the UK.

But how does the situation in Shanghai or New York (neither of which I know anything) answer the question of whether the people of London/SE are better of worse off living in HMO rather than their own place.
I don't see the issue is, how we can level down as quickly as possible but rather what is best for the existing people of the UK.

mayonnaise

CLAPTON wrote: »

I acknowledge that there are many people worse off than the people that live in the UK.

But how does the situation in Shanghai or New York (neither of which I know anything) answer the question of whether the people of London/SE are better of worse off living in HMO rather than their own place.
I don't see the issue is, how we can level down as quickly as possible but rather what is best for the existing people of the UK.

We can continue playing our part in the global economy with London and the SE being an engine of growth (which will attract people, both indigenous and foreign).
Or we can disengage from the world. Yes, houses would be cheap and roads empty. If you think that will make us better off, you're deluded.

antrobus

Nick_C wrote: »

Except those EU nationals from Cyprus, Ireland, and Malta, who have full voting rights already

That would be true. But that right arises because they are Irish, Maltese, or Cypriot citizens. They would have the same rights even if those countries were not EU members.

I interepreted the question as addressing EU citizens.

Nick_C wrote: »

...(along with, bizarrely, anyone from Rwanda or Mozambique who happens to be living here!)

Bizarre it might be, but that's what it says in the British Nationality Act 1981. (As amended).

Is that a problem?

Nick_C

padington wrote: »

The British dream used to be to end up in the country side. Now it's to end up in the sun. Once people focus on the fact that a whole world of possibilities will close to them to work and live in Europe, the leave vote will be dead in the water.

There was a time when people flocked to Spain and the Algarve for sunshine and a low cost of living, but those days are long gone. Spain and Portugal are too expensive now, and the property scams in Spain have frightened many people off.

People looking for holiday or retirement homes in the sun are now more likely to be looking at Florida, Goa, or Australia.

If you look at the top 20 countries for Brits abroad, six of them are in the EU with an estimated British population of 1.2 million. The US alone has 678,000 British residents. Add in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, and you have another two million, but of course some of those people will be dual nationals born in those countries (as will some of the Brits living in the EU).

Even without the EU we would have people living and working abroad (and foreigners living and working here). There would just be better control.

mayonnaise

kabayiri wrote: »

If you did a straw poll in a town like Peterborough to find out who knew about "Morgan Stanley", would they answer :

a) investment bank
b) posh utility knife
c) that bloke who starred in Shawshank Redemption

Seriously, this must be a worry for the "Innys". They can't afford for the Remain argument to be closely associated with bankers.

:rotfl:
It's a factor yes...I wouldn't say it's a worry.
I honestly don't know anyone favouring brexit. Honestly.
Always worked in a multinational environment and working abroad comes as natural as foreign nationals working here.
I guess most of London and the SE will vote remain as they know which way their bread is buttered.

crux

Fundamentally this issue is about closing the borders and stopping free movement of people.

Everything else is just noise & miss direction.

In the end the core question comes down to this --- is regaining full determination over our immigration policy worth the blank cheque we are going to have to sign to make it happen?

The answer has got to be no...

One of the major reasons why it's got to be no, is that it's unlikely we will gain effective control over immigration even with a leave vote! - much more likely a messy negotiated compromise with the EU with access to the single market in return for some kind of re-badged free movement with further brake mechanism.

Personally I'm just not in favour of protectionism - whichever way you what to dress it up that's what leaving the EU amounts to.