If we vote for Brexit what happens

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Amazing.

You still don't get it.

They didn't transform, they didn't vote. Their views on June 23rd do not contribute to the result.

You can rofl and lol all you like. Pursuing this line of defence against the stark reality of what the result actually was is making you look childish and silly.

Everyone gets it. There was a referendum on 23rd June where 37% of the electorate voted to leave the EU. MP's who may, or may not, have to vote on the matter will take that into account but they have to try and represent the best interests of all their constituents.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

No one is trying to convince anyone except you.

I've adopted attempting to describe the reality of what happened on June 23rd, you have not. It is you who is arguing from a basis of opinion rather than fact.

Your gut feeling counts for nothing.

Facts don't care about your feelings. It's about time people got to grips with that.

You're trying to argue against UK law, against history, against widely accepted facts that on June 23rd the majority voted to leave. Again, abstentions don't count towards anything. They don't count towards leave or remain, they are not counted at all.

do you not see any contradiction between your posts here and the ones on the Scottish thread? You said that the Scottish vote for remain was 'tainted' and have tried to count those who didn't vote in the Scottish elections many times.

You say the SNP support is clearly massive - do you have any idea of the size of the vote they got in the 2016 Scottish parliament elections? I've posted it many times. It's around 25% of the electorate. Truly gargantuan.

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

Everyone gets it. There was a referendum on 23rd June where 37% of the electorate voted to leave the EU. MP's who may, or may not, have to vote on the matter will take that into account but they have to try and represent the best interests of all their constituents.

Representing it as 37% is misleading.

The people were asked, 3 outcomes came out of that question. People either turned up and voted to remain or to leave, or didn't turn up and their vote was not taken into consideration. At which point those who did turn up spoke on their behalf. We don't re-run the referendum because some people didn't bother to register in time, bother to remember to turn up to vote, etc...

The people who abstain are no longer considered in the overall vote tally, they have delegated that decision. The total is then calculated from those who did turn out. Whatever the proportion of abstentions are, they simply don't matter. In the same way they didn't matter when ~59% didn't turn out for the AV referendum in 2011.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

do not see any contradiction between your posts here and the ones on the Scottish thread? You said that the Scottish vote for remain was 'tainted' and have tried to count those who didn't vote in the Scottish elections many times.

Haha.

I knew this was coming.

The fractured voting and the level of abstentions (55% turnout) in Scotland are why the SNP enjoy the majority they won in Holyrood, in the same way that Leave won on June 23rd. Whatever people think in Scotland after the vote is irrelevant, you don't change it based on which way the wind is blowing, or which side of bed you got out of. It's done, it's final. The 45% of abstentions don't matter to the result either. Do they?

The Scottish parliament elections count just as much as the EU referendum counts. We cannot reverse the Scottish parliament election result simply because only 55% of people turned out, and out of that 55% the SNP only managed ~50% of that (1m votes). The abstentions still don't count towards the result. On the day of the Scottish parliament election and on the day of the EU referendum, anyone who abstained forfeited their vote and subsequently doesn't get a say, which is why when ANYONE calculates the percentages the abstentions are removed.

Unless of course you have a bias you need to confirm, then leave the abstentions in, because it makes your story (and that's what it is) look better.

beecher2

Tricky, you were the one counting the people who didn't turn out to vote in Scotland, not me. I think you're very mixed up. Why did you post this, unless of course you have a bias you needed to confirm, lol

You say the SNP support is clearly massive - do you have any idea of the size of the vote they got in the 2016 Scottish parliament elections? I've posted it many times. It's around 25% of the electorate. Truly gargantuan.

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Representing it as 37% is misleading.

The people were asked, 3 outcomes came out of that question. People either turned up and voted to remain or to leave, or didn't turn up and their vote was not taken into consideration. At which point those who did turn up spoke on their behalf. We don't re-run the referendum because some people didn't bother to register in time, bother to remember to turn up to vote, etc...

The people who abstain are no longer considered in the overall vote tally, they have delegated that decision. The total is then calculated from those who did turn out. Whatever the proportion of abstentions are, they simply don't matter. In the same way they didn't matter when ~59% didn't turn out for the AV referendum in 2011.

The referendum was advisory. 37% advised they'd like to leave the EU. About the same advised the opposite and about the same again offered no advice.

It's not misleading - it's just numbers and, as you know, they have no feelings.

I'm pretty sure it'll mean you'll get something closer to your preferred outcome and the process will be legitimate and legally watertight. However, you should be aware I was pretty sure remain would win the referendum, I was pretty sure the government could trigger A50, and I was pretty sure the government would win this legal case.

beecher2

I find the Daily Mail and Daily Express front pages quite disturbing this morning. Calling judges 'enemies of the people' is really chilling.

ruggedtoast

Brexiteers woke up shell shocked today. They staggered out of their bedrooms, stumbled into their kitchens, fell over their Staffordshire Bull Terriers, dropped their commemorative Charles and Diana biscuit tins and ate their cornflakes with a sense of unreality as their Daily Mail screamed about coups, sedition and acts of infiltration from Europe!

Golly you'd think it was the 1930s. Except the Mail and most of the Brexit type supported the Germans back then.

The more things change...

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Tricky, you were the one counting the people who didn't turn out to vote in Scotland, not me. I think you're very mixed up. Why did you post this, unless of course you have a bias you needed to confirm, lol

That comment was related to the size of SNP support, which as a result of that vote and others can be considered somewhere between 1m and 1.3m, roughly 25% of the overall electorate support the SNP, rather than the relevance of the outcome where the majority of those who voted (those in the country who counted on the day!) voted for the SNP.

They're different.

The basic argument you, MobileSaver and wotsthat appear to be telling me is that the abstention vote counts after the fact, that these people did not delegate the responsibility for the decision that was taken on June 23rd.

When clearly in law, the government, the media and general consensus (unless you HAVE to portray it otherwise) agree that the abstention vote has delegated the decision to those who did turn up. Their views are not counted, ergo their views did not count on June 23rd, as if they were not part of the electorate.

In the same way that during the Scottish parliament elections the views of those who abstained in that did not count.

Conrad

Keep in mind 68.8% of the counting areas came down for leave, and far higher in England and Wales. As Guardian journo Zoe Williams wrote, virtually the entire south of England voted leave, much of affluent middle class.

Polls show only 10% of us really care for the EU.

We need a thread about what exactly parliament wants to know, because when I see Andrew Neil follow this line of enquiry the Remainers get all tied in knots.