If we vote for Brexit what happens

CLAPTON

Herzlos wrote: »

But we're actively working with Turkey to help them join, so you're is already invalid. This was actually part of the Leave campaign.

the best estimate is years and years away;
surely you haven't (conveniently) forgotten the 'remainers' outrage when it was suggested that Turkeys entry was imminent (remember the 'scaremongering' cries and the hopes that the racist East Europeans will veto them anyway)

The EU wasn't founded to keep foreigners out, it was to make inter-country trade easier for the nearest partners. Most of us aren't looking at this in terms of Black/white, because it's not relevant. Any non-white person who gains EU citizenship is equally welcome across the board, and there are no real barriers to them doing so if they wish.

people who believe in free trade would not have put high tariffs barriers on the undeveloped african countries.

The reason we don't have more African countries in the EU is has nothing to do with skin colour, but more to do with logistics and EU entry criteria which has nothing to do with race.

you can't be serious about 'logistics ' : how do we manage to trade with china, india, USA. south america : typical nonsense, made up excuses.
EU entry criteria were open and flagrantly ignored in the cases of Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus, Malta : but they are white and christian and culturally 'european'.

You really couldn't pick a worse straw man, and it really doesn't make you sound like the caring liberal intelligentsia you're aiming for, especially since you've stated your reason for wanting to leave is because foreigners are in your view crippling the economy.

I've made my reasons for wishing to leave very clear which do NOT include because foreigners are 'crippling' the economy.

wotsthat

michaels wrote: »

Don't forget if the population growth were to slow down then even though we see lower GDP growth overall the impact on GDP per head will be smaller. And of course lower unskilled population growth will result in wages at the bottom being pushed up, so 'the poorest' will be protected.

and of course if we keep nominal GDP growing via QE and interest rates remain low govt finances will improve as nominal debt to gdp will fall.

Win win win

The consumer has to be willing to increase the pay of the lowest skilled.

The sandwich factories, for example, are pretty reliant on low-paid imported labour to maintain the low price point of Graham's meal deal. If that price increases then maybe he'll make his own packed lunch.

Not the world's biggest loss and some of that labour will go home but maybe there will just be more unemployed unskilled people?

At that end of the employment aren't people working for benefits with the consumer making a sub via the minimum wage? It would seem to me that a change in the attitude of the taxpayer or consumer would have a much more dramatic effect than a slowing of population growth.

Conrad

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-wetherspoons-eu-european-drinks-stop-selling-tim-martin-bullying-leaders-a7393271.html



Wetherspoons boss who campaigned for Leave threatens to stop selling European drinks because of 'EU bullying'

Tim Martin accuses European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker of putting EU businesses at risk by telling them not to negotiate with UK companies


“I don’t think Wetherspoon or British buyers are in a weak position because we can switch from Swedish cider to British cider. So the people put in a weak position are the sellers and I think that is the paradox that has not been illustrated.”

setmefree2

The Markit/CIPS purchasing managers' index for the construction sector rose to 52.6, up from 52.3 in September......

Output in the UK's construction sector rose in October, thanks to another "solid" increase in the residential building sector.

setmefree2

Brexit negotiations between Britain and the EU could turn “vicious”, Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny warned on Wednesday (2 November) during a meeting with politicians and business leaders to discuss the divorce.
Kenny said Britain’s decision to leave the EU was the “most significant economic and social challenge of the past 50 years” for Ireland but that “Europe risks losing the plot” over what deal to offer Britain, adding that talks threatened to become “quite vicious”.
Kenny said Ireland was the EU state with most to fear from Brexit and that it was already suffering despite the British government not yet triggering the formal separation process, citing the economic effects of the near 20% drop in the value of sterling.
“I am very conscious that for some sectors, Brexit is not a distant prospect but a present reality as the sterling depreciation creates many challenges for Irish exporters,” he said

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/irish-pm-warns-of-vicious-brexit-negotiations-says-may-committed-to-no-hard-border/

Herzlos

CLAPTON wrote: »

the best estimate is years and years away;
surely you haven't (conveniently) forgotten the 'remainers' outrage when it was suggested that Turkeys entry was imminent (remember the 'scaremongering' cries and the hopes that the racist East Europeans will veto them anyway)

You're portraying the EU as being non-white, non-christian hating, yet your example shows somewhere the EU is actively helping a non-white, non-christian country to join. That's a bit contradictory?

I've made my reasons for wishing to leave very clear which do NOT include because foreigners are 'crippling' the economy.

I don't have the patience to go looking through your posts, but before you started banging the racism drum, you kept going on about house prices being too high, and services being overrun, all because of foreigners.

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

You try living on a budget with no oven or freezer, and see how you get on :rotfl:

I don't doubt your parents had a different upbringing to your (or my) generation, but what cheap and manageable then isn't necesarily the same.

Local food is expensive now, so unless you're near a supermarket, good food isn't that cheap. Supermarkets tend to be located on the edge of town, so that shopping trip might be an hours round trip on foot.
If you can't bulk buy and store food (freezing), then you're restricted to smaller orders and using everything up. If you don't have an oven/hob you're really restricted in what you can do with stuff, and I refuse to believe that your parents grew up in houses without a stove.

Cheap food is usually crap, and a lot of people don't have the option. Since the price of stuff is going to have to go up on the whole (not least, because oil is priced in USD and stuff needs transported), they'll have to go for even more crap.

Your view on food hikes due to Brexit really is a case of "Let them eat cake" with seemingly no concept as to the reality for a lot of people in the country.

Ever been to Ukraine?

That's definitely a form of poverty in my opinion.

People living in what I could only describe as a hovel, no electricity, no running water. They might have a cow, or a goat if they're lucky. They wait for the bus (see: transit van) to get to the nearest shop from which they will purchase what they can, usually porridge, a product called kefir which is essentially out of date milk, and other products people in the UK would sooner throw in the bin than eat/drink to stay alive.

I know this will sound odd until you've seen or even experienced living like this but the "poor" in the UK are privileged. On my most recent stay with my Eastern European family I visited the flats of another family member and a friend of the family. In one flat (the family member) which was a 1 bed + 1 bed/lounge flat there were 3 adults living there, 1 was the mother (father had recently passed on) and the other 2 adults were the son and his wife who are in their 40's. They can only afford to live under their parents roof. The other flat I went to visit was home to a family of 4. Mum, dad and two daughters in their 20's. They had one bedroom/lounge, I had no idea this was the case and foolishly asked them where the 2nd bedroom was assuming in my ignorance that no family surely lives and sleeps in the same room. Extremely embarrassing.

Both of those families were considered not to be poor. They ate well, they went on excursions, the concept of a foreign holiday is alien to them unless it's by coach or by train.

They don't have flat screen TV's, not even the old types. They'll usually have an old CRT, the types you threw away years ago. The second hand clothing that gets sent there from the UK is sold at inflated prices in Ukraine, old football shirts going for more than people there can afford second hand items for. Forget mobile phones, they don't even have landlines. Because food is so expensive they will also work hard to grow their own, it's common for land not to be wasted on landscape gardening, grass for the little ones to play on or patio to have the odd BBQ on, but rows of planted vegetables so they're able to eat the year round.

By UK standards the 2 families I met with recently would be considered poor, wouldn't they?

I cannot help but see the militant advocacy on behalf of the supposed poor in the UK as being some form of moral point scoring when very few, if any in this country experience Eastern European destitution let alone the destitution experienced across the wider world.

setmefree2

Conrad wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-wetherspoons-eu-european-drinks-stop-selling-tim-martin-bullying-leaders-a7393271.html



Wetherspoons boss who campaigned for Leave threatens to stop selling European drinks because of 'EU bullying'

Tim Martin accuses European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker of putting EU businesses at risk by telling them not to negotiate with UK companies


“I don’t think Wetherspoon or British buyers are in a weak position because we can switch from Swedish cider to British cider. So the people put in a weak position are the sellers and I think that is the paradox that has not been illustrated.”

Some great British beers around - try " Meantime" - a great London beer.



On offer in M & S - 25% off 6 bottles. (As is Camden Hells)

wotsthat

Conrad wrote: »

“I don’t think Wetherspoon or British buyers are in a weak position because we can switch from Swedish cider to British cider. So the people put in a weak position are the sellers and I think that is the paradox that has not been illustrated.”

Good for Wetherspoons. Swapping Swedish cider for British cider seems like a simple and obvious substitution.

What's stopping him from doing it rather than talking about doing it? Is he waiting for an apology from Juncker?

Maybe plans are already afoot to do this and he's trying to get maximum media attention?

setmefree2

Lithuania issues manual on what to do if Russia invades

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/28/europe/lithuania-war-manual/