Caught turning on airport double red lines by camera van

peadar

Once VCS reject my appeal, can I ask them to go straight to court? Do I need to appeal to the IPC?

hoohoo

peadar wrote: »

Yes, I certainly didn't see anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a 'contract'. It was dark, and I was trying to locate the car park.

I finally received the 'Parking Charge Notice' over the weekend and intend to appeal. And indicate that I would only pay subsequent to a court ruling. When you say that VCS "rarely" test the invoice in court - when were those rare occasions and what was the outcome? I haven't been able to find any online.

In the one case on record the driver said he had broken down. The judge asked VCS, if the driver really had broken down, would they have charged him. Certainly not, said VCS. Well, I find the driver broke down. Case dismissed said the judge.

The next case never made it to a hearing. It was widely anticipated on this forum, and we all looked forward to testing the case in court, but VCS chickened out.

Since then nothing.

Here is the web page with the missing map
http://www.liverpoolairport.com/parking/dropping-off-picking-up/

The signage on site pointing to pickup zone 2 is non existent. You would almost think they wanted a driver to go wrong...

Coupon-mad

peadar wrote: »

Once VCS reject my appeal, can I ask them to go straight to court? Do I need to appeal to the IPC?

This is covered in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread. Your choice, but make an informed choice and know you WILL lose.

I say do not appeal to the IAS but I have provided links there to other opinions which differ from mine (and I can see why people do say appeal to IAS). I just don't think most people can withstand the stress of being on the back foot after an inevitable IAS loss and possibly being more likely to get picked out for a Gladstones letter and threat of court, than a person who slips back under the radar after 1st appeal. I think most newbies would rather choose the latter group.

My suggestion is appeal to the PPC only, using the IPC version shown in the NEWBIES thread (thanks to salmosalaris for it) then ignore every letter unless a person gets small claim papers or a Gladstones or a PPC-written 'Letter Before Claim'.

Do not write: '' I didn't see anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a 'contract'. It was dark, and I was trying to locate the car park.''

Ralph-y

hi, ... this is my ... sort or standard reply to vcs (lower case intended)

The scammers that infest some of the smaller airports are in cahoots with said airports as its is a (allegedly) mutual financial arrangement ....

Go backseveral years and you would have won this at a POPLA appeal ..... however in the world of PPC's they created another trade body (the IPC) that have a (again allegedly) kangaroo court :eek: (the IAS) The IAS seem to treat appeals as a lottery 80%+ loose irrespective of the evidence.......

you therefore can, after reading the below, do the first appeal (a new template appeal for the IPC is imminent) ,and then ignore .... or do the appeals as a paper trail.

VCS did try out their first small claims court case over such ....and as predict that they pulled out before the trial ..... . They did not dare try placing this before a real judge! and have not yet tried again ..... I wounder why ?




Please do not let this put you off ..... read through some of the below for background information ....




http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/vehicle-control-systems-signage-at.html



https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5191690

( a car rental thread)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5132921

(Doncaster Airport)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5192051

(complainint to the dvla)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5130131

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5177878

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5180656

(Luton Airport)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5177198

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5110349

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5171250

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5152822

(Robin Hood Airport)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5131416

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5149455

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5148343


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5386589


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5242997


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5384003


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5387380






some of the links go back up to one year a go …..




so please do not think you are alone / different than all the others who fall into this trap !



Stay strong and Good luck


Ralph:cool:

peadar

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Do not write: '' I didn't see anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a 'contract'. It was dark, and I was trying to locate the car park.''

Once I reached the car hire site, I used an entranceway to turn (I wasn't 'stopped' on the roadway as such), as i genuinely thought I had missed the Drop Off 2 car park and needed to retrace my path. I had to wait for a short period of time until it was safe to turn back to my right. This is a key part of my case, but it would be difficult to express impersonally rather than as something that actually happened?

Thanks for the advice.

peadar

In addition to the template points, I was going to point out some JLA specifics: on the basis of subsequent viewing on Google Maps, that there are approximately 100 words on the sign at the corner of the roundabout. There is research literature to say that text-based signs of any sort (never mind 100 words of it) are particularly difficult to read in the dark, and while a driver is negotiating a junction. Acquiring the textual information that they imply was a contract, requires the driver to read that information at least as fast as they could continue to perform crucial and life-critical tasks involve in driving, and specifically at a location where critical navigation decisions had to be made. Without agreement between parties, the law of penalties does not apply.

Also, the photos show my car in an entrance-way that opens upon the road, not the roadway. The car could not have presented a potential obstacle or cause for congestion, as it was not on the roadway.

I don't think there is any indication between the sign on the corner of the roundabout and the location my car is photographed at, as to where Drop Off/Pickup 2 is located. Instead a driver would come across a Car Rental site, not the promised Drop Off/Pickup 2. It is not unreasonable in that situation to assume that one has missed the Drop Off 2 car park, and to consequently attempt to turn in the entrance of a private site. It is then necessary to wait for a short period of time until it is safe to make a right turn (a moving vehicle can be seen in the airport-bound lane in the first photo).

Coupon-mad

Easy enough to explain it just saying 'the driver did this, the driver did that'.

yotmon

peadar wrote: »

Also, the photos show my car in an entrance-way that opens upon the road, not the roadway. The car could not have presented a potential obstacle or cause for congestion, as it was not on the roadway.

Yes, but if you look on Google pics, you will see that particular side road is also governed by the 'deadly' double red lines. Probably bought by the pallet load from B&Q. One thing for sure, it aint reflective paint.

There is a sign at the top of the roundabout for Drop off 2, however, it appears to point towards where you turned around and not directly towards the correct entrance.

Please don't put too much hope in VCS allowing your appeal, as I'm sure they knock back more than 99.9%. And the IAS are even worse !!! It may sound harsh, but you are not playing on a level playing field. It's their ball, so therefore they want to play by their rules. It's just the way they do business - scammers, the flaming lot of them !

zoonyx

You'll lose your appeal, and your IAS appeal, but who cares - its VCS. One of the biggest jokes in the industry...

Oldie but a goodie...

https://insideseacroft.wordpress.com/tag/vehicle-control-services/

VCS were given a humiliating drubbing in S!!!!horpe County Court on 16 May 2012 on this very issue. The full transcript of VCS v Ibbotson is comedy gold and you can download it from this link. District Judge McIlwaine told VCS’s solicitor, Miss Coates, in no uncertain terms what he thought of the case: “…it seems to me this whole action is ill-founded. You have no right to bring this action. Moreover, on my interpretation of your Code of Practice, you are in clear breach. You have signed statements of truth which say you adhere to the Code of Practice. You do not. To sign a statement of truth when it is not correct has significant implications. If you have issued any other proceeding in this land on the basis of this dispute, you are in serious trouble. Am I absolutely clear?”

‘Bring a toothbrush’

He goes on to say: “I have to say to you that when you get into the office tomorrow morning
you had better have a look pretty quickly at what is going on. I will tell you now after these
proceedings I will issue an alert so you are clear. I have had this case in my court and all judges with this case and this dispute are advised to look at the terms and conditions of contract. If you continue to pursue those cases on this flawed premise, the consequences will be significant. If there is another case in the S!!!!horpe County Court, Grimsby County Court or Hull County Court live by four pm on Friday, you will be coming to see me and I suggest you bring a toothbrush. Am I clear?”
Ouch!! It gets better still. District Judge McIlwaine threw out VCS’s case, awarded costs to Mr Ibbotson (the defendant) and ordered VCS’s managing director to appear before him in court to explain discrepancies in the court case. He then told Miss Coates: “If you have issued proceedings and you have obtained judgments and those judgments are flawed, you have got to set those all aside. Not a good day at the office, is it?”

hoohoo

peadar wrote: »

In addition to the template points, I was going to point out some JLA specifics: on the basis of subsequent viewing on Google Maps, that there are approximately 100 words on the sign at the corner of the roundabout. There is research literature to say that text-based signs of any sort (never mind 100 words of it) are particularly difficult to read in the dark, and while a driver is negotiating a junction. Acquiring the textual information that they imply was a contract, requires the driver to read that information at least as fast as they could continue to perform crucial and life-critical tasks involve in driving, and specifically at a location where critical navigation decisions had to be made. Without agreement between parties, the law of penalties does not apply.

Also, the photos show my car in an entrance-way that opens upon the road, not the roadway. The car could not have presented a potential obstacle or cause for congestion, as it was not on the roadway.

I don't think there is any indication between the sign on the corner of the roundabout and the location my car is photographed at, as to where Drop Off/Pickup 2 is located. Instead a driver would come across a Car Rental site, not the promised Drop Off/Pickup 2. It is not unreasonable in that situation to assume that one has missed the Drop Off 2 car park, and to consequently attempt to turn in the entrance of a private site. It is then necessary to wait for a short period of time until it is safe to make a right turn (a moving vehicle can be seen in the airport-bound lane in the first photo).

There is a full analysis of JLA signage here
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/vehicle-control-systems-signage-at.html

and a video here
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/are-independent-parking-company.html


and here is what the IAS will rule, no matter how good your case.
The signage at the location is clear with many signs along the route. The Driver would have had to have passed numerous signs before reaching the location where they choose to stop.