Struggling and no one to turn to.

z.n

Hi OP
Don't think of your OH as an abuser- it seems really unfair to cast him in this negative light. He has a long-standing and difficult to manage mental health illness which affects his ability to cope with everyday life, and which also shows itself in abnormal reactions to things. While a mentally ill person can of course also be abusive, it really doesn't sound like your OH is a bad person- just an ill one.

That said, living with a mentally ill partner is jolly hard (my OH is a saint and I truly don't know how he puts up with me.) Anxiety is a real bummer and so hard to control. The reduction in medication is probably enabling your OH to feel more 'present' in life, but also letting the anxiety raise its ugly head a bit more- win/lose! Or two steps forward three steps back.

If you are lucky, this could be a transitional phase which will settle. The problem is though that having had some CBT when more doped up, now he is reducing dosage, more things come to the surface and you OH probably needs more CBT or therapy. Or maybe he has been suffering a reduced benefit from his anti-depressants anyway/fallen into poor patterns of behaviour while trying to reduce his anxiety. Whatever, he needs support from mental health services, whether you stay or go because he needs to be a father to his children whether you stay together or not.

I have no idea what the alloted time for CBT via the NHS is these days but I did two full-time weeks, plus weekly then monthly 30 min sessions with a psycotherapist, plus five or so sessions with a psychiatrist plus about 18 months of weekly group therapy. All of that was just about sufficient for me to be able to control my desire to behave pretty much the same as your OH. As it is I have numerous strategies, some of which require the cooperation of others to keep my anxiety under control. I try not to make these too intrusive (eg DH phones me to say what train he is on/if delayed etc) - this is perhaps me 'controlling' him- but is also a practical step to stop panic attacks if he is later than normal. Situations where a 'normal' person might start to get a little worried can flip into full overload very easily. So the reality is that we have to work round it a bit.The trick is to come up with a mode of operation which is not unduly onerous on the 'well' partner and which is within the bounds of the ability of the other to cope.

Your methods of working with your OH anxiety are clearly too onerous and he needs to meet you half-way. Eg you go out but carry a phone. The first few times, you text every hour or so to say you are ok. Then reduce it to once at lunch and then as you leave. This way, inevitably, he will get anxious. But with a bit of work he should be able to find a way of living with it. At the moment it sounds like he is avoiding rather than tackling his anxiety and finding sensible ways to cope with it. He is using you as a crutch which is unfair and unsustainable. Things do need to change.

It seems to me a full review of the situation with the GP might be one possible route- could you go alone and then follow up with a session together. The GP might be able to direct you to the help your OH needs. Try this before making a final decision to leave- but ultimately, if your own health or the health of your children is being compromised then you must look after yourself and them.

Cherry24

OP, has he tried ERP (Exposure Response Prevention Therapy)? This is recognised as another way to treat OCD if CBT isn't effective.
I am a member of OCD UK - they have a very helpful forum with a family and friends section. They also have a helpline. I think OCD Action also have a helpline and forum.

MoodyMel

z.n wrote: »

Hi OP
Don't think of your OH as an abuser- it seems really unfair to cast him in this negative light. He has a long-standing and difficult to manage mental health illness which affects his ability to cope with everyday life, and which also shows itself in abnormal reactions to things. While a mentally ill person can of course also be abusive, it really doesn't sound like your OH is a bad person- just an ill one.

I really haven't meant to portray him as an abuser. You have to understand how frustrated and worn out I am. Also how scared I am about the thought of trying to find employment, which is hard enough anyway, never mind the additional boundaries that need to be placed on any job I apply for. It would have to be extremely local, in school hours and no shifts where he would be left with the kids. Add that to the fact that I want it to be him going out to work while I stay home with the kids (maybe doing something like a dinner lady job and possibly more study) He isn't a bad person. If he was I most definitely would not have been with him 20 years

That said, living with a mentally ill partner is jolly hard (my OH is a saint and I truly don't know how he puts up with me.) Anxiety is a real bummer and so hard to control. The reduction in medication is probably enabling your OH to feel more 'present' in life, but also letting the anxiety raise its ugly head a bit more- win/lose! Or two steps forward three steps back.

Yes changing dosages always causes extra stress and anxiety, however has been on the reduced dose since before christmas now so I believe the transitional period has passed, it is usually a few weeks he is affected for, this has been longer than that now.

If you are lucky, this could be a transitional phase which will settle. The problem is though that having had some CBT when more doped up, now he is reducing dosage, more things come to the surface and you OH probably needs more CBT or therapy. Or maybe he has been suffering a reduced benefit from his anti-depressants anyway/fallen into poor patterns of behaviour while trying to reduce his anxiety. Whatever, he needs support from mental health services, whether you stay or go because he needs to be a father to his children whether you stay together or not.

This is very true, he would still need to be a dad to the kids. I would never stop him seeing them and obviously if I left I would need to know he was ok when alone with them.

I have no idea what the alloted time for CBT via the NHS is these days but I did two full-time weeks, plus weekly then monthly 30 min sessions with a psycotherapist, plus five or so sessions with a psychiatrist plus about 18 months of weekly group therapy. All of that was just about sufficient for me to be able to control my desire to behave pretty much the same as your OH. As it is I have numerous strategies, some of which require the cooperation of others to keep my anxiety under control. I try not to make these too intrusive (eg DH phones me to say what train he is on/if delayed etc) - this is perhaps me 'controlling' him- but is also a practical step to stop panic attacks if he is later than normal. Situations where a 'normal' person might start to get a little worried can flip into full overload very easily. So the reality is that we have to work round it a bit.The trick is to come up with a mode of operation which is not unduly onerous on the 'well' partner and which is within the bounds of the ability of the other to cope.

All he was allocated was 6 1hr sessions, one per week. I can relate what you have said here with his behaviour. If he goes out and is an exceptionally long time I might glance out the window and wonder where he is/what's keeping him. With him he goes in to full blown panic mode and has even phoned the police once because I took 10 minutes longer to get home than usual, simply due to road works!!! He starts pacing the house and street if the older boys aren't home within about 30 minutes of school ending. It drives me mad as I don't want them feeling stressed about getting home quickly because of him. It isn't fair on them to have their lives controlled by his problems.


Your methods of working with your OH anxiety are clearly too onerous and he needs to meet you half-way. Eg you go out but carry a phone. The first few times, you text every hour or so to say you are ok. Then reduce it to once at lunch and then as you leave. This way, inevitably, he will get anxious. But with a bit of work he should be able to find a way of living with it. At the moment it sounds like he is avoiding rather than tackling his anxiety and finding sensible ways to cope with it. He is using you as a crutch which is unfair and unsustainable. Things do need to change.

I already do this. If I go to uni I text when I am parked, I text when I get out and back to the car. I race home as quickly as I can. I am not sure what else I can do. I say I will text when getting to my friends house, and when leaving etc but that doesn't matter as I don't get to go anyway. If I even mention going shopping on my own or with my friend all I get is a million excuses as to why I shouldn't go. But it is fine for him to drop the boys at swimming club or cadets and then go to his friends house and given that he drops off and picks up 5 days a week he sees various friends that often. It feels really unfair.

It seems to me a full review of the situation with the GP might be one possible route- could you go alone and then follow up with a session together. The GP might be able to direct you to the help your OH needs. Try this before making a final decision to leave- but ultimately, if your own health or the health of your children is being compromised then you must look after yourself and them.

I haven't made a final decision to leave but am preparing myself. I don't want to leave. I just worry that I have built up so much resentment towards him due to the way I have to tiptoe round him, race home (if I even get to go to uni) or get dropped off or picked up if that is my only option to going to uni. I am not sure that even if we manage to overcome these problems I will be able to overcome my feelings.

I like your suggestion of me going on my own to the doctors and then a joint review session. He keeps saying he wants to get the snip. I feel sad at the prospect of no more children as I always had plans for a large family, however he is always far worse when we have babies/young children. He starts to get a bit better as they get older... although we are only just encountering the 'going out' stage now the older two are in high school.

MoodyMel

Cherry24 wrote: »

OP, has he tried ERP (Exposure Response Prevention Therapy)? This is recognised as another way to treat OCD if CBT isn't effective.
I am a member of OCD UK - they have a very helpful forum with a family and friends section. They also have a helpline. I think OCD Action also have a helpline and forum.

I will look into this thank you.

BigAunty

MoodyMel wrote: »

FWIW I control all the finances, simply because it is all my money.. He doesn't have any money of his own. Obviously I say he can buy stuff if he needs it, or if he 'wants' something just to check with me that there is money in the account spare, i.e not about to be taken by bills. He is fine with this... mostly.... He does say it is another stress that makes him worry that if I die in a car crash he won't know how to run the house and finances etc...

I don't understand this on a few fronts. The following is musing. Feel free to correct or challenge me. I hope it doesn't come across as harsh because that's not my intention.

The first is that if you are not working, my assumption is that most of your income (apart from student related) are from benefits which are typically considered to be joint household income by most families. Apologies if I've misconstrued. The mention of '24 hours' of employment is a working tax credit threshold. Is it really your income or is it defined as your income by him or by you both?

The second is that it is extremely uncommon for a spouse to have virtually no direct access or control of household income. This tends to only happen with elderly couples who were brought up with the traditional main breadwinner/housewife roles. It also happens in POA situations where someone formally manages the finances of someone vulnerable. Or it happens in abusive relationships where one partner deliberately financially exploits the other.

Your set-up doesn't seem to mirror these set-ups, though as your hubby is mentally ill, I can see part of one of those models.

Not having control of the bills or household income is less for him to worry about, yet perversely he manages to use this as proof that your departure would really badly affect him. So on the one hand, he seems to shun quite basic domestic responsibilities (household budgeting) but also uses it as a guilt thing, too.

He isn't capable of holding down a job, being alone or managing simple household responsibilities but manages to study, help out with the kids and go out for a pint and a game of snooker while grinding you down so you don't spend a minute away from him? I'm probably over-simplifying. I'm just wondering whether a lot of this stuff is about suiting himself, his preferences (though I am not disputing his illness at all). Somehow he manages to have downtime when you can barely meet your studying commitments.

Have you had a look at the Womens Aid website and does anything chime with you? The request that he electronically monitors you via Skype when he is out socialising is just outrageous, btw.

If he's that 'tech savvy, and hypervigilent, is there a chance that he is monitoring your PC, phone, email, social media accounts?

What do your friends and relatives think of the situation?

MoodyMel

BigAunty wrote: »

I don't understand this on a few fronts. The following is musing. Feel free to correct or challenge me. I hope it doesn't come across as harsh because that's not my intention.

The first is that if you are not working, my assumption is that most of your income (apart from student related) are from benefits which are typically considered to be joint household income by most families. Apologies if I've misconstrued. The mention of '24 hours' of employment is a working tax credit threshold. Is it really your income or is it defined as your income by him or by you both?

The second is that it is extremely uncommon for a spouse to have virtually no direct access or control of household income. This tends to only happen with elderly couples who were brought up with the traditional main breadwinner/housewife roles. It also happens in POA situations where someone formally manages the finances of someone vulnerable. Or it happens in abusive relationships where one partner deliberately financially exploits the other.

Our income consists of student loans/grants, child tax credit and a bit of housing benefit. So the child tax credits isn't really viewed as either of ours it is simply household money to feed and clothe the kids and keep the heatng electric on. The housing benefit we get obviously goes towards the rent and as it doesn't cover it all I pay the rest of the rent out of the student loans etc.. they also cover council tax and other bills like mobile phones, car insurance etc.. things that could be considered non-essential, also clothes for us.

The 24hr I have mentioned is that I would need to find a job of 24hrs to be able to get working tax credit as well as child tax credit as it would be we are far better off. His suggestion is that I just find work of 16hrs which is £100pw and the same as we would get if we signed on but I have said I'm not doing that as for the sake of an extra 8hrs we would lose out on the bump up of working tax credit. I wouldn't be able to take full time employment as things are as it would mean paying childcare for any after school hours, which would have to be fully covered by my wages.


Your set-up doesn't seem to mirror these set-ups, though as your hubby is mentally ill, I can see part of one of those models.

See this is the thing. He contradicts himself a bit as he has always said for me to sort out the finances, even when he was working, as he didn't have time/found it too stressful/trusted me to do it better....whatever.. there has always been one reason or another and I don't mind doing it. But then he uses it against me and says that because I do it all he wouldn't know where to start with it if anything happened to me.
Well we have a joint account so he can freely log on and look at DD's, payments going out etc so I have reassured him he would manage just fine. Also he knows where to find the budget notebook I keep which lists outgoings and incomings. He isn't stupid, he is doing a Physics degree (possibly about to switch to solely maths degree) so he knows how to add a few figures. He just finds it stressful. He also has times where he can go a bit silly with money and spend willy nilly... which is actually partly the reason I took over sole managing of it in the first place.

Not having control of the bills or household income is less for him to worry about, yet perversely he manages to use this as proof that your departure would really badly affect him. So on the one hand, he seems to shun quite basic domestic responsibilities (household budgeting) but also uses it as a guilt thing, too.

He isn't capable of holding down a job, being alone or managing simple household responsibilities but manages to study, help out with the kids and go out for a pint and a game of snooker while grinding you down so you don't spend a minute away from him? I'm probably over-simplifying. I'm just wondering whether a lot of this stuff is about suiting himself, his preferences (though I am not disputing his illness at all). Somehow he manages to have downtime when you can barely meet your studying commitments.

He doesn't really drink (growing up in a household of alcohol abuse has put him, as it has me as I also grew up with an alcoholic dad) He has very recently, like 3 weeks ago, started to go for an hour of snooker with my brother. It is £5 an hour and one pays for the hour the other buys a drink each, then the following week they swap. we can't afford to go out much and I have encouraged him to go out snookering for a couple of reasons. 1, I think it is unhealthy the amount of time he spends on the house. 2, I hope it will prove to him the world isn't full of axe murderers. 3, I hope that he will realise that he has been getting time out and then understand that I need that too.

Have you had a look at the Womens Aid website and does anything chime with you? The request that he electronically monitors you via Skype when he is out socialising is just outrageous, btw.

If he's that 'tech savvy, and hypervigilent, is there a chance that he is monitoring your PC, phone, email, social media accounts?

Yes there is definitely the chance he can do that, and may well do? He has spent most of his life building and maintaining computers, both in employment and domestically so he knows them inside out and the ins and outs of most technology

What do your friends and relatives think of the situation?

Regarding friends and family. I don't really have a lot of contact with family. Partly because they are big drinkers and spend a lot of time in pubs, plus they all work full time. Also because over the years there have been falling outs with my husband and so they don't come round. They do speak to him and him to them but they are never going to be best friends iygwim. With the exception of my older brother as my husband and my brother were friends before we got together and it is through him we met. .
I only really have one friend in real life. I have friends online who I have chatted to (and met a couple irl) from MSE. Plus my best real life friend who we arrange to come to each others house with husbands so they can play silly computer games while we chat. I talk to her every day on fb or via text.

BigAunty

Do you actually think that the controlling aspects (threat of anxiety attacks, ladelling on the guilt, the pressure you are put under to submit to his preferences) will actually lessen if/as he recovers? Have you experienced a reduction in surveillance when his illness is under control?

Or do you think the control which causes you a high degree of social isolation and limits your employment and income opportunities may thrive independently of his mental illness? That it's perhaps part of his learned behaviour, comes out of his personality or basic character?

Was he responsible for driving your family away?

Did he exhibit any kind of monitoring, insecurity or jealousy in the early days of your relationship? Does it ease off as he recovers? Over the long period that you've known him, obviously there will have been big ups and downs in his illness, but has the controlling element just generally increased over time?

btw, Womens Aid publishes a basic guide on how to keep yourself safe online. Also, if you google the topic, you will get an idea how to check if your accounts and electronic items have been compromised and how to protect them. He has an extraordinary fear of being abandoned so I wonder if he's somehow anticipated it. Women are extremely vulnerable when their partner finds out they are ending the relationship and planning to leave.

http://www.womensaid.org.uk/page.asp?section=00010001000800010001

BigAunty

"I try to shelter them from it all. I have no doubt they see it, they aren't stupid. I don't think it is affecting them too badly though they are all great kids, sociable, all doing brilliantly in school etc.. I make sure they get to go out to see friends, even if it causes me stress as I then have to have him pacing up and down checking his phone every five seconds in case they call, checking the time... "

Do you think they end up walking on eggshells like yourself? Does he do normal 'dad' type activities like taking them out, attending school events or is it limited to a bit of chauffering? Is there much interaction? With you, he's extremely needy to an intolerable degree so does he act like a dependent with them?

It sounds like he's not keen on being a house husband in terms of childcare while you study/work or perhaps that you don't think he's cut out for it? I'm not quite clear on the set-up from your posts. I'm not quite certain how he contributes to the house if he's not in employment, not into basic housekeeping tasks like budgets/bills.

Again, not wholly applicable in your circumstances, a household afflicted by the behaviour of an ill person rather than an abusive one, but hopefully there is some helpful there.

http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-survivors-handbook.asp?section=000100010008000100380001&sectionTitle=Children+and+domestic+violence

BigAunty

As an aside, I've become interested in eastern psychology which has a different take on mental illness and recovery than the western model.

It's a very gross generalisation but here in this part of the world, there is a notion that a person has to recover before they can then start to do everyday activities whereas the more eastern style is that an ill person should aspire to do their everyday activities, and even serve others, as part of the recovery process.

I've started to read the work of David K Reynolds who is admired for the way he has bought therapies that originated in Japan over to the west.

He calls his model 'Constructive Living'. It steers people away from focussing on the past, foccusing on their feelings, focussing on excuses, excessive self attention. It wants the sick person to take responsibility for their actions.

I've observed before that it doesn't seem to have 'caught on' or become very high profile and I wonder if it's because it is so unpalatable to our western, individualistic, consumerist world.

The OP could google his work. Sample lecture paper which offers an example that might chime with the OP (replace the term 'plane' with the OP herself)

"Self confidence vs. reality confidence
It can be said that the core of neurosis is a self-centeredness. The person who fears flying knows that the airline flies that same route day after day without crashing. But in shinkeishitsu moments the person believes that because he or she is on that plane it is special, it will deviate from the ordinary and crash. ... However, we are not the center of everyone else's universe.

Shinkeishitsu moments ("shinkiness" in CL terms) is filled with self-concern--what will happen to me? How terrible they make me feel! Why must I suffer so much? During "shinky" moments there is very little concern with the inconvenience of others. In "shinky" moments the client will corner anyone who shows some compassion and will complain endlessly. When the listener finally begs to be relieved of the burden of offering a shoulder to cry on the momentary "shink" will only be disappointed that the person wasn't there for him or her longer. There was so much more to complain about."

BigAunty

Some other quotes from that pioneer in Constructive Living:-

Talk, talk, talk. How often it is used to back away from reality. p. 73

Confidence comes after we have done our work and succeeded, not before. p. 137

Anguish becomes more bearable when we know that we are doing all that we can to relieve constructively the conditions that cause the anguish.

Part of maturity is taking responsibility for what we do, no matter what we are feeling.

It is all too easy to sidestep responsibility for what we do by labeling our problem an illness, a medical problem. But it is sheer absurdity.

It is all too easy to sidestep responsibility for what we do by labeling our problem an illness, a medical problem. But it is sheer absurdity.

Easing life circumstances won't allow the client to develop the confidence that comes from overcoming those circumstances

Some of my students aren't hurting enough. They hurt just enough to feel mildly uncomfortable and not enough to use the hurt to push themselves to make basic changes in their lives

Most of us know what needs to be done most of the time; too many of us have developed intellectualizing, fantasizing skills that distract us from what we know needs doing

Inactivity breeds inactivity.

The pressure to complain prevents the neurotic person from being a sensitive listener.

Morita saw quitting work as a great tragedy for neurotically sensitive people

When we have behaved ourselves into destructive habits we must behave ourselves out of them.

Obsession boils down reality to rigid bite-size chunks that is no longer reality.

Feel despair but take out the trash

Attention to our immediate tasks, an active and positive life-style, and the acceptance of inevitable change as a part of human existence are fundamental to our Constructive living teaching.

Neurosis is being caught by this discrepancy between what is desired and what is possible. Neurosis involves a misdirection of attention toward this inherently insoluble problem of life.

We see too many Western clients encouraged to work on their anger, their hidden grief, their self-esteem, their lack of confidence. They are thus inappropriately distracted from the necessary action of daily living

That's what maturity is all about--not feeling confident all the time but doing what needs doing regardless of your feelings.

You might be surprised at how many people are hurting but don't want to change their lives