Scottish independence

A._Badger

ProudDad wrote: »

I know our economy can't rely on oil long term or to any real extent, I also know that the currency issue is far from solved but if we use our own currency then it is still possible that things could work out. There are many smaller successful countries with their own currency and if we join the euro I genuinely don't feel that would be a bad thing as I feel that's the way the Uk will move in the future at some point once we come out from underneath our sovereign rock.

<snip>

I would support as the current administration in west minister is about as relevant to Scotland as the administration is Beijing as no matter if Scotland votes one way if England votes the other our voices will be completely swallowed up.

There is a complete failure of logic in your argument. On the one hand you advocate membership of the EU and toss in a sneer about 'sovereign rock' in the process. Then you complain about the supposed irrelevance to Scotland of Westminster and the difficulty of making a Scottish voice heard in a Parliament based in London.

And yet one, by any account immeasurably larger and more remote, in Brussels...?

SuperAllyB

Bricking it.

jimjames

ProudDad wrote: »

I would say that not all people willing to vote yes in this referendum have no understanding. I have a degree in economics and a good one at that as well as years of experience working in the financial services sector so feel that the comments about people having no understanding is very insulting.

It's good to finally have someone willing to engage on the issues rather than just posting countdowns.

Apologies if it comes across as insulting but I'm really not sure how else the currency plans can be seen. I find it staggering that a campaign that includes either keeping a currency with the agreement of an foreign power or using a currency of another country without agreement can then attack anyone questioning such an arrangement as being biased or scaremongering, as an economist you must know better than anyone that being independent with no control over monetary policy is not really independence.

As I see it the Yes camp has such a huge range of opinions from far, far left to greens and others that no-one has the same view as anyone else about the way forward hence the complete muddle over currency and other issues. Much the same contradiction about a green economy based on making the maximum use of oil & fossil fuels.

ProudDad

A._Badger wrote: »

There is a complete failure of logic in your argument. On the one hand you advocate membership of the EU and toss in a sneer about 'sovereign rock' in the process. Then you complain about the supposed irrelevance to Scotland of Westminster and the difficulty of making a Scottish voice heard in a Parliament based in London.

And yet one, by any account immeasurably larger and more remote, in Brussels...?

I think you partially missed the point that I made or it wasnt clear for which I apologise. Perhaps to myself EU membership is more important than membership of the UK as we may end up outside the EU after the next election which in my view is a far more damaging proposition than Scottish independence. Yes it may seem that I want to move from one Union to another with the later being larger but also more distant in its decision making. The current UK is a member of the EU and no one would question our sovereignty so I feel the comparison between the UK and EU is quite like comparing chalk and cheese.

The current system in Westminster is irrelevant regardless of who is in charge. Consistently policies are imposed on the whole UK on a one size fits all without the thought of our four distinct economies. Also politics is very elitist without much relevance to the man on the street especially when you consider the house of lords which in my view should be scrapped.

I dont agree that there was no logic in my decision however others may disagree and thats the joy of debate.

ProudDad

jimjames wrote: »

It's good to finally have someone willing to engage on the issues rather than just posting countdowns.

Apologies if it comes across as insulting but I'm really not sure how else the currency plans can be seen. I find it staggering that a campaign that includes either keeping a currency with the agreement of an foreign power or using a currency of another country without agreement can then attack anyone questioning such an arrangement as being biased or scaremongering, as an economist you must know better than anyone that being independent with no control over monetary policy is not really independence.

As I see it the Yes camp has such a huge range of opinions from far, far left to greens and others that no-one has the same view as anyone else about the way forward hence the complete muddle over currency and other issues. Much the same contradiction about a green economy based on making the maximum use of oil & fossil fuels.

Being someone with a knowledge I dont think that use of the pound is Scotlands best option at least not long term although it may be suitable short to medium term I feel moving towards euro or our own currency is more acceptable although I think the later is unlikely. Using the pound would be a start and we would need to start somewhere.

The yes camp is very far reaching but so are both sides. On both sides of the debate the only thing people agree on is the yes or no answer to the vote. I for one am much more keen to see Scotland to make more of a go at the green economy without so much use of fossil fuels as the whole of the UK has plenty of potential with the respect to this. Oil should still be extracted as it still has plenty of uses other than fuel plus is a valuable commodity however Scottish reliance on it should not be taken for granted.

CLAPTON

ProudDad wrote: »

I think you partially missed the point that I made or it wasnt clear for which I apologise. Perhaps to myself EU membership is more important than membership of the UK as we may end up outside the EU after the next election which in my view is a far more damaging proposition than Scottish independence. Yes it may seem that I want to move from one Union to another with the later being larger but also more distant in its decision making. The current UK is a member of the EU and no one would question our sovereignty so I feel the comparison between the UK and EU is quite like comparing chalk and cheese.

The current system in Westminster is irrelevant regardless of who is in charge. Consistently policies are imposed on the whole UK on a one size fits all without the thought of our four distinct economies. Also politics is very elitist without much relevance to the man on the street especially when you consider the house of lords which in my view should be scrapped.

I dont agree that there was no logic in my decision however others may disagree and thats the joy of debate.

what percentage of your exports / imports are with England?
what percentage of your exports / imports are with the rest of Europe?


could you explain as an economist the vast benefits to the people of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland are gaining from the one size fits all EU?


The current government at Westminster is based on the democratic votes of the people of Scotland, wales, N Ireland and England.
The government of EU is based on failed politicians from the EU countries on a baggins turn principle and not a vote by the people of Europe.


You must be blind and deaf if you think people don't question the sovereignty issue of being a member of the EU.


We don't have a one size fits all in the UK.
Scotland, Wales and NI have devolved governments with significant powers and the policies can and do differ e.g. Scotland chooses to spend less on the NHS than England and so has a poorer health: that's its choice.


Do you actually live in the UK or know anything about it at all?

CLAPTON

ProudDad wrote: »

Being someone with a knowledge I dont think that use of the pound is Scotlands best option at least not long term although it may be suitable short to medium term I feel moving towards euro or our own currency is more acceptable although I think the later is unlikely. Using the pound would be a start and we would need to start somewhere.

The yes camp is very far reaching but so are both sides. On both sides of the debate the only thing people agree on is the yes or no answer to the vote. I for one am much more keen to see Scotland to make more of a go at the green economy without so much use of fossil fuels as the whole of the UK has plenty of potential with the respect to this. Oil should still be extracted as it still has plenty of uses other than fuel plus is a valuable commodity however Scottish reliance on it should not be taken for granted.

as an economist could you share you view of the economic consequences on Scotland using the pound on the Panama solution? The impact of reserves, the Scottish government budget, banking industry etc.

Archi_Bald

Oh what joy, now we can turn to the EU debate....

CLAPTON wrote: »

could you explain as an economist the vast benefits to the people of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland are gaining from the one size fits all EU?

CLAPTON wrote: »

We don't have a one size fits all in the UK.
Scotland, Wales and NI have devolved governments with significant powers and the policies can and do differ

The EU isn't a one size fits all any more than the UK is one size fits all. All the member countries have their own governments with significant powers and their policies can and do differ. Some EU countries have further devolved powers - e.g. Germany has for decades been a federation of states which all have their own powers and policies. Of course there are some areas where devolution makes no sense and the benefits from economies of scale will outweigh devolved powers.

There is no debate, the common currency without fiscal unity, coupled with a global financial crisis, has proven to be a bit of a disaster. Although I don't believe it will be the end of the Euro, this experience is enough reason for me to never support a currency union with Scotland, or between any other countries that do not have a fiscal union.

But to say that Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland did not benefit from the EU is just showing ignorance. Have you been to any of these countries regularly over the last 20 years? Have you seen the new roads, power plants, railway lines, airports that could be justified on the basis of affordability because of the economic union, and that were in large parts funded by subsidies from the richer nations? That provided jobs during construction, and now provide maintenance jobs as well as enable borderless trade, and new sources of income for many? Have you spoken to people who live in those countries and have the freedom of movement inside the EU without needing visas? Have you got / do you know someone with an export business that enjoys the benefit of doing business with 26 other countries without needing to adhere to 26 different rules and regulations, without needing costly delays in customs? Have you considered the "minor" benefit of no wars between the EU members? Note I am not saying it's all marvellous - there is always room for improvement and some things badly do need improving. Just like they do inside the UK.

I find it quite disingenuous if rUK folk try and talk Scotland into staying with the UK when at the same time they support leaving the EU. There is fundamentally not much difference between the two separation activist groups - they have a selfish desire for power.

rpc

ProudDad wrote: »

I am not voting yes but I want change I want change not just for Scotland but for all the nations on these wonderful islands

Spot on.

I think and hope that this exercise will have woken up "the establishment" and we will have a better constitutional settlement for everyone as a result.

I do not think that more powers for Scotland will be easily given without (as a minimum) resolving the West Lothian Question. I'd like to have seen Barnett replaced too but, unlike some on the Yes campaign, I realise that we can't have everything.

Voted before work. My wife went at about 7.20 and said there was a queue! Politics may just come alive again after this. As a serial non-voter, her eyes have been opened.

rpc

SuperAllyB wrote: »

Bricking it.

From what I see around me and on social media (which I accept isn't representative of everyone), No voters think they will win but are bricking it. Yes voters have decided that they have won and are celebrating.