phones4u selling contracts to minors. (and Orange)

[Deleted User]

grumbler wrote: »

They lose the profit they could have made.
If you were right they would be happy to cancel any sim-only contract without any charges.

it's a phone contract.

grumbler

mtwiscool wrote: »

No ID was supplied at the shop at all so yes someone could go in they and work out with a phone.

I guess the debit card was used for a PIN-verified transaction.
Yes, it's not a proper ID check, but at least something.

mtwiscool wrote: »

it's a phone contract.

You missed the point.
The phone was supplied by P4U, so for Orange it's a sim-only contract. If they don't pay commission, all what they lose is their future profit that they would have made.

[Deleted User]

grumbler wrote: »

I guess the debit card was used for a PIN-verified transaction.
Yes, it's not a proper ID check, but at least something.
You missed the point.
The phone was supplied by P4U, so for Orange it's a sim-only contract. If they don't pay commission, all what they lose is their future profit that they would have made.

so how to proceed?

grumbler

What do you want?

Your sister committed a fraud and you reported it. Most likely the contract will be cancelled and she will be blacklisted for many years to come (I don't know for how long CIFAS marks remain on the file), i.e. won't be able to get any mainstream credit .

If the contract isn't cancelled, the sister can cancel the DD and stop paying. The contract is void and nobody can enforce it. P4U can possibly sue here for the cost of the phone, but won't do this.

Anoneemoose

grumbler wrote: »

They lose the profit they could have made.
If you were right they would be happy to cancel any sim-only contract without any charges.

Not really, as the people who sign up are (hopefully) legitimitely signing up for their agreements. This has never been the case here so they deem it a void contract.

I hardly think an illegally gained phone contract is going to dent their profits.

Anoneemoose

grumbler wrote: »

They lose the profit they could have made.
If you were right they would be happy to cancel any sim-only contract without any charges.

In addition, I stand by what. I say. They don't lose out in the sense that they don't make a loss. But you probably knew what I meant you seeing as you are always so pedantic!

[Deleted User]

grumbler wrote: »

What do you want?

Your sister committed a fraud and you reported it. Most likely the contract will be cancelled and she will be blacklisted for many years to come (I don't know for how long CIFAS marks remain on the file), i.e. won't be able to get any mainstream credit .

If the contract isn't cancelled, the sister can cancel the DD and stop paying. The contract is void and nobody can enforce it. P4U can possibly sue here for the cost of the phone, but won't do this.

CIFAS is for 1 year.
we have been looking into stopping the direct debit.
and they can not sue as the contract is invalided.

grumbler

Anoneemoose wrote: »

In addition, I stand by what. I say. They don't lose out in the sense that they don't make a loss. But you probably knew what I meant you seeing as you are always so pedantic!

Yes, they don't make any loss, but similarly they don't make any loss on any legitimately signed sim-only contract cancelled early. My point was that this doesn't stop them demanding the ETC.
In this case you said that as they "are not out of pocket so they have no reason to make someone else pay" (ignoring the fact that they simply can't make someone to pay).

Anoneemoose

grumbler wrote: »

Yes, they don't make any loss, but similarly they don't make any loss on any legitimately signed sim-only contract cancelled early. My point was that this doesn't stop them demanding the ETC.
In this case you said that as they "are not out of pocket so they have no reason to make someone else pay" (ignoring the fact that they simply can't make someone to pay).

I did not ignore the fact that they can't make someone else pay at all! I have already said they will deem the contract to be void.

We all know you don't like Orange, EE and whoever else but this doesn't mean everything you say about them is correct.

I worked for them for 10 years and although I can't disagree that their customer service and processes are the best, I can categorically tell you that they would never try and force someone to pay for a contract that isn't valid.

grumbler

mtwiscool wrote: »

CIFAS is for 1 year.

I am no expert, but a quick search says 6 years:

As with the Credit Reference Agencies and other Fraud Prevention Agencies, from 1 January 2012, a fraud will remain on the database for up to six years.

http://www.unlock.org.uk/userfiles/file/IAG/Banking%20fraud%20February%202012.pdf , p.3