E-on - You are a bunch of Liars and I'm reporting you to Ofgem

Cardew

sniggings wrote: »

but if they have to use less fuel because of raising prices why should the percentage increase be expressed as a percentage of the users usage.

If I buy a pint of milk and the next day it has increased in price by 50%, theat's a 50% increase but when it comes to fuel they are crafty, they increase the unit rate and/or standing charge, but in stead of giving the price in crease on the unit price, they give it as a percentage of how much more the person is paying, which covers up the fact that yes the person might only be paying 3% more on their bill, but that's because they have to use 7% less fuel.

Ebico are the only company where a 5% increase in their charges means that all their customers pay 5%extra. That, obviously, is because there is only one variable element in their tariffs i.e. the kWh price.


Virtually every other company's tariffs have at least 3 elements - the Daily Standing Charge(DSC), the kWh price and the discount structure. The Heatwise tariff has 6 elements.


It is therefore absolutely impossible for a tariff to have an average price increase, of say 5%, that affects all customers in the same manner. e.g. A large increase in the DSC impacts more on those with low consumption, but has less impact on those with high consumption.


A large increase in the kWh charge has the opposite effect.


So some will pay more than 5% extra, others less than 5% extra. However if the company say their average increase is 5%, their figures are audited to ensure this is the correct percentage.


Apparently as the average customer was confused by the complicated tier rate charging system, Ofgem have insisted this is how companies must present the various elements of their tariff. - to make it simpler!!

sniggings

Cardew wrote: »

Ebico are the only company where a 5% increase in their charges means that all their customers pay 5%extra. That, obviously, is because there is only one variable element in their tariffs i.e. the kWh price.


Virtually every other company's tariffs have at least 3 elements - the Daily Standing Charge(DSC), the kWh price and the discount structure. The Heatwise tariff has 6 elements.


It is therefore absolutely impossible for a tariff to have an average price increase, of say 5%, that affects all customers in the same manner. e.g. A large increase in the DSC impacts more on those with low consumption, but has less impact on those with high consumption.


A large increase in the kWh charge has the opposite effect.


So some will pay more than 5% extra, others less than 5% extra. However if the company say their average increase is 5%, their figures are audited to ensure this is the correct percentage.


Apparently as the average customer was confused by the complicated tier rate charging system, Ofgem have insisted this is how companies must present the various elements of their tariff. - to make it simpler!!

it just seems the governmant are helping the power companies hide the true cost...back to my milk analogy, if my milk has increased in price by 50%, I want to know that, I don't want them to tell me that because I buy less milk I'm only paying 10% more on milk but buying 40% less milk, I also don't want to know that someone that buys soya milk is paying 70% more, which averages out my increase to only 40% but if I don't buy soya milk my real increase is still 50%, we know the power companies have a vested interest in confusing us but the government seem happy to let them do it and also add their own bit of confusement.

Nada666

sniggings wrote: »

but if they have to use less fuel because of raising prices why should the percentage increase be expressed as a percentage of the users usage.

If I buy a pint of milk and the next day it has increased in price by 50%, theat's a 50% increase but when it comes to fuel they are crafty, they increase the unit rate and/or standing charge, but in stead of giving the price in crease on the unit price, they give it as a percentage of how much more the person is paying, which covers up the fact that yes the person might only be paying 3% more on their bill, but that's because they have to use 7% less fuel.

Citing the price of milk as an example of clear or honest or progressive or reasonable or fair pricing is totally bonkers - if you purchase four or eight pints the price you pay is totally different from when you purchase one pint and is completely distorted by loss-leading and predatory behaviour. Two-tier and daily standing charge (and even Heatwise) tariff structures are a beacon of clarity compared to the price of milk.

sniggings

Nada666 wrote: »

Citing the price of milk as an example of clear or honest or progressive or reasonable or fair pricing is totally bonkers - if you purchase four or eight pints the price you pay is totally different from when you purchase one pint and is completely distorted by loss-leading and predatory behaviour. Two-tier and daily standing charge (and even Heatwise) tariff structures are a beacon of clarity compared to the price of milk.

I thought it was a good simple analogy, no analogy is perfect but imo it gets across the fact that if the price of a product is increased, that is the increase that should be announced, not the percentage my milk/fuel spending has increased by, as that takes no account of the fact I will probably be using less product but paying more for it.

Anyway I made my point, sorry if you don't think I expressed it very well, I have that feeling all the time with fuel price increase announcements

SwanJon

I think you have built up a straw man for yourself to knock down - but it lets you have a good rant..
Comparisons at price changes are based on the same level of consumption before and after the price change.
It will be calculated for each of the 14 regions, and then at each payment method within that region - all at Ofgem's proscribe average annual consumption.
These figures are then averaged by voume of customers.
At no point do they compare a higher consumption before with a lower consumption afterwards to calculate a % change.

sniggings

SwanJon wrote: »

I think you have built up a straw man for yourself to knock down - but it lets you have a good rant..
Comparisons at price changes are based on the same level of consumption before and after the price change.
It will be calculated for each of the 14 regions, and then at each payment method within that region - all at Ofgem's proscribe average annual consumption.
These figures are then averaged by voume of customers.
At no point do they compare a higher consumption before with a lower consumption afterwards to calculate a % change.

you say a straw man but then go on to say the figures are based on usage, my argument is that they should be based on the unit rate not usage, so this straw man I was making hasn't much stuffing has he.

I only want to know what my unit price increase is, I'm not daft I can work out my usage, I don't find a country/region average very helpful, people have all levels of usage, insulation, house sizes etc etc far to many variables for a average usage figure to be useful for me, tell me how much the price is going up is all I need.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

sniggings wrote: »

you say a straw man but then go on to say the figures are based on usage, my argument is that they should be based on the unit rate not usage, so this straw man I was making hasn't much stuffing has he.

I only want to know what my unit price increase is, I'm not daft I can work out my usage, I don't find a country/region average very helpful, people have all levels of usage, insulation, house sizes etc etc far to many variables for a average usage figure to be useful for me, tell me how much the price is going up is all I need.

Most people can't. Without usage a price increase of "x % standing charge and y% unit rate" is meaningless.

People want a headline figure of £'s and pence. To do this, one needs to use a fair constant of usage. Which is exactly what they (and other suppliers) have done.

sniggings

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

Most people can't. Without usage a price increase of "x % standing charge and y% unit rate" is meaningless.

People want a headline figure of £'s and pence. To do this, one needs to use a fair constant of usage. Which is exactly what they (and other suppliers) have done.

if they can't do that how are they going to get any meaningful help from a country wide average, I'm not stupid but I struggle to understand where I fit in to the "average" , If I can work out where i am on the average scale, I still am guessing what my increase will be, slightly more than average, more than average, if I can manage to do that, I sure can manage to work out my usage based on unit price.

Funny how their method makes the increase already look smaller than it is, my method is at least honest.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

sniggings wrote: »

if they can't do that how are they going to get any meaningful help from a country wide average, I'm not stupid but I struggle to understand where I fit in to the "average" , If I can work out where i am on the average scale, I still am guessing what my increase will be, slightly more than average, more than average, if I can manage to do that, I sure can manage to work out my usage based on unit price.

Funny how their method makes the increase already look smaller than it is, my method is at least honest.

Excuse me?

SwanJon

sniggings wrote: »

but if they have to use less fuel because of raising prices why should the percentage increase be expressed as a percentage of the users usage.
...
they give it as a percentage of how much more the person is paying, which covers up the fact that yes the person might only be paying 3% more on their bill, but that's because they have to use 7% less fuel.

sniggings wrote: »

you say a straw man but then go on to say the figures are based on usage, my argument is that they should be based on the unit rate not usage, so this straw man I was making hasn't much stuffing has he.

As above, you suggest that companies make the % increase look smaller by comparing higher 'before' consumption with lower 'after' consumption.
I point out that this is not the case and the same consumption is used 'before' and 'after'.
You then claim this wasn't your argument, something different was.

sniggings wrote: »

I only want to know what my unit price increase is, I'm not daft I can work out my usage, I don't find a country/region average very helpful, people have all levels of usage, insulation, house sizes etc etc far to many variables for a average usage figure to be useful for me, tell me how much the price is going up is all I need.

As increases are not the same across standing charges, day and night, even within the same region, tariff and payment method consumption will give a different overall % change.

So you want your own personal % increase based upon your region, your tariff, your payment method and your consumption.
What about the other 27m households? You'd end up with a press release the size of a library - so big it would be no use at all.

Or should all suppliers announce your % increase rather than the average?

It might be nice if your supplier informed you of your own increase in a personal communication (maybe they did/will?), but it is nonsense to suggest they should do it in a national announcement.