child abuse

amus

jellyhead wrote: »

I don't know if it would be classed as child abuse, but the mother might be pointed towards help such as parenting classes. I went on a parenting course when I was struggling with my tantrum throwing teenager and it really helped. CAFCASS (spelling?) might get involved and assess the situation.

Also, I'm not sure at what age a child's wishes might be taken into account, but I think it might be from around the age of 12, depending on the child. They can be 'Gillick' competent, so if they don't want to live with their mother, they could say so.

Common sense prevails.....

amus

marisco wrote: »

Maybe in your world, certainly not in mine. Abusing a child of any age is an horrific thing to do. Why are you so keen to sweep this under the carpet as if it is no big deal? I work as a teacher and if a child in our care disclosed this kind of thing going on it would be taken very seriously. I question what the mum is doing to these kids when the dad is not about, considering she did this without a second thought in front of him. Why have the OPs sons been too scared to tell their dad what they have been suffering?

Quite simply, like I said before, I would rather resources be directed to vulnerable, abused children who genuinely need help and who are unable to speak for themselves. I just don't get the impression that is the case here.

And there's no point continuing because if you think that battering and starving a small child to death is equal to a mother grabbing and shaking a fourteen year olds arm then we are always going to have a fundamental difference of opinion. Of course there are sliding scales of child abuse.

Mojisola

amus wrote: »

If the mother did lie about this then, again, surely at 14 they would be able to inform authorities that this was the case?

I'm sorry but if this is the worst she has done to the kids at the ages they are then I doubt that life has been 'hell' for them. I would think genuine victims of child abuse would find that description quite insulting.

scrumpyjax said that the last few years have been "hell". He's been there so I'd go by his description rather than yours.

Children are very vulnerable to manipulation - if you don't think that one parent can threaten (you'll never see me again if you tell people that happened), promise (I'll never do it again, once Dad's not around life will be much better, we'll all be happy again) or bribe (when you're living with me, I'll get that XXX for you that you've always wanted), you're being naive.

amus

Mojisola wrote: »

scrumpyjax said that the last few years have been "hell". He's been there so I'd go by his description rather than yours.

Children are very vulnerable to manipulation - if you don't think that one parent can threaten (you'll never see me again if you tell people that happened), promise (I'll never do it again, once Dad's not around life will be much better, we'll all be happy again) or bribe (when you're living with me, I'll get that XXX for you that you've always wanted), you're being naive.

I took that to mean 'hell' for him in terms of their relationship.


Sorry, I stand by the fact that 14 year olds can generally speak for themselves. Of course that's not to say there aren't vulnerable 14 year olds about that need protection.

marisco_2

amus wrote: »

And there's no point continuing because if you think that battering and starving a small child to death is equal to a mother grabbing and shaking a fourteen year olds arm then we are always going to have a fundamental difference of opinion. Of course there are sliding scales of child abuse.

Have you never heard of the concept that abuse always escalates. It may start with the mum grabbing a child's arm, digging her nails in and shaking them. If no-one steps in at this stage and shows her that this will not be accepted or tolerated then who knows what she may do next.

There is also the risk of abuse becoming a vicious circle. If at 14 years of age you suffer this and are not helped you begin to think this is the normal way of things when parenting. There is the possibility that these impressionable young boys may go on to behave in just the same way in later life.

Mojisola

amus wrote: »

I took that to mean 'hell' for him in terms of their relationship.

And you think that life has been lovely for the children living in the same household?

paulineb_2

Its very possible that we could sit and debate all day whether this is or isnt child abuse.

But the most important thing is what happens now and in the future. A friend of my family is separating from her partner and its been an acrimonious split, due to his behaviour. Which has got worse since the split and he was recently convicted of an offence against the mother.

There was abuse directed towards the older kid, hes 9 years old. Mostly emotional but had a serious enough effect that psychologists are involved to give him support. Womens aid are also giving the mum support. Abuse takes many forms, just because is not a child being beaten or starved doesnt mean its not important.

There was one incident where there was violence towards the older child and the father didnt get help (he didnt cause the incident, an older brother from a previous relationship did but he said the younger kid was at fault).

The father is a doctor. When the child did get medical treatment (not by him) the mum was told that if the child had struck his head another couple of centimetres across, it could have killed him.

The older child doesnt want to see his dad and he doesnt have to, that was decided by a court, but it wasnt just a case of kid saying to mum, I dont want to see my dad, the dad was fighting for access and that could happen in this case as well.

Even if the kids say no way am I going to stay with mum, she might decide to take legal steps to see the kids and no, I dont think a court would force kids to see their parent if there was evidence that they might be at risk, but thats why its important that this is recorded.

Because it will make a massive difference in the future. And it shouldnt matter that there are other families who need support, because you dont actually know the effect of what is happening on these kids.

Abuse can take all forms. And from experience, I dont think a couple of visits from social services or police or support from other organisations (because there are other organisations that deal with the issue of child abuse) will be wasting anyones time.

It could make all the difference to these boys in the future. Including a decision being made on who they live with in the future

Because if this isnt reported and they go to court to discuss access/custody, it will be a simple case of mums word v kids word and dads word, there will be no official record of anything ever happening to the 14 year old

And that may weaken the dads case for having them full time.

amus

marisco wrote: »

Have you never heard of the concept that abuse always escalates. It may start with the mum grabbing a child's arm, digging her nails in and shaking them. If no-one steps in at this stage and shows her that this will not be accepted or tolerated then who knows what she may do next.

There is also the risk of abuse becoming a vicious circle. If at 14 years of age you suffer this and are not helped you begin to think this is the normal way of things when parenting. There is the possibility that these impressionable young boys may go on to behave in just the same way in later life.

If this is the worst incident that has occurred so far, at the ages of 14 and 13, I would suggest its unlikely to escalate into full on child abuse. The boys have their dad who is supportive, they are at an age where they can speak for themselves and choose not to see the mother.


If we were talking about young children of course my opinion would be completely different, but were not.

amus

Mojisola wrote: »

And you think that life has been lovely for the children living in the same household?

Unfortunately lots of children these days experience the same, but if social services were involved in every case where there is an unhappy household due to impending divorce.....

amus

paulineb wrote: »

Its very possible that we could sit and debate all day whether this is or isnt child abuse.

But the most important thing is what happens now and in the future. A friend of my family is separating from her partner and its been an acrimonious split, due to his behaviour. Which has got worse since the split and he was recently convicted of an offence against the mother.

There was abuse directed towards the older kid, hes 9 years old. Mostly emotional but had a serious enough effect that psychologists are involved to give him support. Womens aid are also giving the mum support. Abuse takes many forms, just because is not a child being beaten or starved doesnt mean its not important.

There was one incident where there was violence towards the older child and the father didnt get help (he didnt cause the incident, an older brother from a previous relationship did but he said the younger kid was at fault).

The father is a doctor. When the child did get medical treatment (not by him) the mum was told that if the child had struck his head another couple of centimetres across, it could have killed him.

The older child doesnt want to see his dad and he doesnt have to, that was decided by a court, but it wasnt just a case of kid saying to mum, I dont want to see my dad, the dad was fighting for access and that could happen in this case as well.

Even if the kids say no way am I going to stay with mum, she might decide to take legal steps to see the kids and no, I dont think a court would force kids to see their parent if there was evidence that they might be at risk, but thats why its important that this is recorded.

Because it will make a massive difference in the future. And it shouldnt matter that there are other families who need support, because you dont actually know the effect of what is happening on these kids.

Abuse can take all forms. And from experience, I dont think a couple of visits from social services or police or support from other organisations (because there are other organisations that deal with the issue of child abuse) will be wasting anyones time.

It could make all the difference to these boys in the future. Including a decision being made on who they live with in the future

Because if this isnt reported and they go to court to discuss access/custody, it will be a simple case of mums word v kids word and dads word, there will be no official record of anything ever happening to the 14 year old

And that may weaken the dads case for having them full time.

I would actually agree that in the situation you describe above there would be cause for intervention, and it seems the right outcome was achieved. But in the situation you just described even a 9 year old child was able to assert what he wanted, which is kind of my point.