Do table manners matter any more?

lillibet_dripping

Jinx wrote: »

I think manners (and speaking well) do still matter. I'm 39 and we had dinner each night at the table when we were small and it relaxed as we got older. I continued this with my daughter, so in our family we can all go anywhere and not (hopefully!) disgrace ourselves.

Counter this with my godson who is in his late teens and has no idea how to use cutlery, eats prawn cocktail by pulling it out the dish with his fingers and slurping his tea by leaning down to the cup and I am actually ashamed of his mother for putting him in this situation. I keep wondering if Im a snob - think I might be!:o

Jinx - there's nothing snobby about expecting good manners - and now you've come to mention it, speaking well too.

I see all sorts of children in my day-to-day life who struggle with spelling because they are not pronouncing words correctly.
Admittedly, this is down to the accent you have but who is going to spell 'nothing' correctly when they pronounce it 'nuffink' or 'mother' when all they know is 'muvver'?

Regional accents are one of the delights of this country so I'm not knocking them (was listening to a delightful man from Norfolk on the radio this afternoon with the broadest accent you ever heard!).

But 'please' and 'thankyou' sound good wherever you live!!

lillibet_dripping

Possession wrote: »

I'm all for manners and my children ask to leave the table, are told not to put their elbows on it, lay their cutlery down when they are finished etc etc. But I certainly don't want to be served first just because I am female and I would not teach my children that. Equality is being equal, not choosing the nice bits and rejecting the others.
In my family, at my grandma's house, the children were served first, not the adults, regardless of their gender. Indeed my grandma, now 91, wouldn't have dreamt of serving women first just because of their gender. She was obviously ahead of her time.

With the greatest of respect, Posession, we talked earlier about this not being about equality, but about basic good manners. Equality is another thing entirely....

Could I ask, in your grandma's household were the menfolk manual labourers? I only ask because someone mentioned that in a manual labour household men were always served first (and given the meat!) because they were the main wage earner and thus, the most important person at the table. It made perfect sense to serve them first - seconds, if necessary!

lushlifesaver

lillibet_dripping wrote: »

Internet research shows that TRADITIONALLY ladies are always served first. If at a formal dinner, the lady to the left of the host is served first (presumably because she is the guest of honour).

Other rules suggest that guests/families are served in order of seniority i.e. grandparents first, then females, then males, then children, then the cook/hostess (which mirrors my rule).

This was how it has always been/always was in my family (all of my grandparents are now sadly deceased and so my parents have become the eldest at the table).

As children we were taught to sit properly by sitting on stools at formal family meals - no slouching! If we were fidgeting we were told to sit on our hands. We were served last. We had to eat all, if not a reasonable, amount of what was on our plates for dessert. We weren't allowed fizzy drinks at the table , we had small glasses of water or, once old enough, were offered a sherry glass of the adults wine of choice. Elbows were never on the table.

It may sound strict and draconian to some but it works, it teaches a number of skills and behaviours and encourages the continuation of traditions.

To the individual that said it was 'vulgar' to be expected to be served first as a women; it is not something you 'expect' it wouldn't matter here or there if you weren't. Would you not also think it 'vulgar' if a man expected the same treatment? Which in many cultures is the case.

I have always appreciated the lessons I learnt at the table, and the side, of both my parents and grandparents. It is because of them that I am reasonably well heeled and well versed in how to behave appropriately in many different situations. I also have to wonder, those that don't learn such flexibility in their behaviours must suffer for it later in life in one way or another - how do you learn to adapt/change behaviours for different situations or places if you never learn alternative behaviours in the first place?

Why all schools don't turn towards the way of one I saw reasonably recently in the media where the young men are being taught basic skills such as polishing shoes, ironing clothes and general positive behaviours and presentation? I also wholeheartedly agree that young women are in need of a similar education!

I cringe at some behaviours I see now from both genders at all ages!

[Deleted User]

Well I live alone and would not dream of not sitting at the table to eat a meal.The only time I have eaten off a tray was when I was in bed ill.

I can understand that children don't always stay at home with Mum before school but even so, hopefully, who ever takes care of them also I would have thought expected them to behave at the table.

I have been looking after four of my grandsons before and after school for the past 3+ years but they didn't need to be taught to behave and have courtesy and manners both at the table and away from it.I suppose maybe because I had always insisted on good manners to their Mum when small they have passed it on to their children..Children are great at copying what grown ups do so if their manners are appalling chances are their parents are similar.

I remember years ago when my eldest DD was engaged and I knew someone who was selling their dining room table and chairs and said that DD and her fiancee probably would be interested in buying them.They went to view the furniture and indeed did buy it.A few days later I saw this girl who had sold it to them.I said was it OK and was she happy that DD had bought the furniture and she said yes ,then right out of the blue she said hasn't your DD got lovely manners.This suprised me a bit and I said why.
Apparently when they arrived they loooked at the stuff and Karen (the girl who was selling asked if they would like a coffee) and Shelley said yes please that would be nice and during the ensuing half hour they agreed a price and the young couple went off.Shelley thanking her for both the coffee and for letting her buy the stuff.Perfectly normal as far as I was concerned but apparently she had seen a couple of people and all of them had been either rude and said Nah its not what we want or I'm not paying for that at that price.Seemingly Shelley and her BF had been polite and said please and thank you and thanked her for taking the time to see them.I was quite taken aback as I didn't see anything different about it but Karen said it was a nice change to be spoken to politely and both Shelley and Ash's manners shone out.So its not just children where it shows.I have never forgotten that and felt very proud that a simple thing like courtesy was noticed and remarked upon.My DD is celebrating her silver wedding anniversary this year and she still is polite and courteous to people,so its stuck with her throughout her life.

honeythewitch

lushlifesaver wrote: »

To the individual that said it was 'vulgar' to be expected to be served first as a women; it is not something you 'expect' it wouldn't matter here or there if you weren't. Would you not also think it 'vulgar' if a man expected the same treatment? Which in many cultures is the case.

No. I did not say anything about being served first specifically.
What i said was... "I think it is extremely vulgar to expect preferential treatment"
Which applies to both sexes and all situations.

craigywv

i another one who insists we eat around the table and expect to be thanked for cooking the meal.............not a lot to expect i dont think. my mum always served the menfolk first then myself and herself. i too do this. my son aged 9 has good manners actually when i went to parent teacher meeting last month it was the first thing the teacher said was that he is the only child who at rollcall says "present Mrs Allen" the rest say aye im here, yo! or grunt! she also says that he always says thank you for everything and the other pupils are used to this behaviour from him and he doesnt get a ribbing or made fun of as he been like this from P1. so yes i do think table manners amongst other manners are very important xxx

whitesatin

When I was growing up mum was probably more concerned about having enough food to put on the table for us. I don't remember the teaching of manners. We picked that up as we socialized more. I have never been precious about such things. My children and grandchildren seem to be socially acceptable.

As a teacher, I saw a few things at the lunch table but I was aware that not all children have experience of sit-down family meals and were more concerned with filling their tummies than using the correct knife and fork. They usually grasped the basics by the time they left school.

These days I have more of a 'don't sweat the small stuff' approach to life.

lillibet_dripping

craigywv wrote: »

i another one who insists we eat around the table and expect to be thanked for cooking the meal.............not a lot to expect i dont think. my mum always served the menfolk first then myself and herself. i too do this. my son aged 9 has good manners actually when i went to parent teacher meeting last month it was the first thing the teacher said was that he is the only child who at rollcall says "present Mrs Allen" the rest say aye im here, yo! or grunt! she also says that he always says thank you for everything and the other pupils are used to this behaviour from him and he doesnt get a ribbing or made fun of as he been like this from P1. so yes i do think table manners amongst other manners are very important xxx

If that is the behaviour that the teacher allows/expects then that's what she'll always get!
Our teachers expect a polite 'Good morning Mrs ....' and if the expected response is not forthcoming there is a pause until the child answers correctly - it only takes a day or two to learn! During afternoon register, they answer in a different language each week!

JackieO - I just knew you would be singing from the same songsheet as me:T Manners will take you anywhere you want to go.

splishsplash

I have a problem with people eating with their mouths open, chomping or smacking lips together, getting bits of food on their fingers or on the sides of their mouths, slurping their drinks, scraping plates with knives or forks, holding cutlery like pens and lowering their heads to the plate.

Otherwise, I'm not too fussed. We seem to have developed a mix of Continental and American styles of eating, and it's not uncommon to see zigzag styles of using cutlery more and more. I think it's unimportant one way or the other.

(FWIW I was taught NOT to leave cutlery in the six o'clock position - I was taught to leave it at 4 o'clock. I've taught my kids to do the same, so I think if a teacher misinformed them at school, I'd be wondering what they were at.)

Possession

lillibet_dripping wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, Posession, we talked earlier about this not being about equality, but about basic good manners. Equality is another thing entirely....

Could I ask, in your grandma's household were the menfolk manual labourers? I only ask because someone mentioned that in a manual labour household men were always served first (and given the meat!) because they were the main wage earner and thus, the most important person at the table. It made perfect sense to serve them first - seconds, if necessary!

We'll definitely have to disagree about that Lillibet, IMO it may have been basic manners 40 years ago but it certainly isn't now.
My grandfather was an accountant. Mind you my grandma's mother was in service and she was brought up by her grandparents who were farmers. I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from all that really.