Do table manners matter any more?

lillibet_dripping

I have been pondering this all morning! (I need to get out more - perhaps I will when it stops snowing!!)

Internet research shows that TRADITIONALLY ladies are always served first. If at a formal dinner, the lady to the left of the host is served first (presumably because she is the guest of honour).

Other rules suggest that guests/families are served in order of seniority i.e. grandparents first, then females, then males, then children, then the cook/hostess (which mirrors my rule).

Different cultures also have different serving rules but most seem to adhere to showing respect to the elders first.

It would also appear that these traditions have nothing to do with equality, whatever culture you embrace as the ritual of cooking and sharing food is as old as the hills.

lillibet_dripping

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

Good table-manners are not the same as arcane matters of etiquette. The former demonstrates respect for oneself and consideration for the others around you, and the latter a way of segregating the alleged cultured from the uncouth.

I wouldn't care whether "the ladies" are served first or the port passed to the left as long as people don't hold their silverware like savages or chow with their mouths open like a cow chewing the cud.

I totally agree. Some of the etiquette rules are plain ridiculous and should have gone out with the Ark.

However, I still believe that serving ladies first, along with 'please' and 'thankyou', not talking with your mouth full etc. are still, or should still be, basic good manners.

I know my father would be horrified if a waiter put a plate of food in front of him before my mother. He respects her and expects everyone else to.

I'm off to see if I can find that programme which Michel Roux Jnr did where he took the youngsters and trained them to work in the hospitality industry. I'm pretty sure that the French would always serve a lady first. It shouldn't matter whether the lady is paying to eat in a restaurant or enjoying a meal at home with her nearest and dearest - I guess it comes down to different cultures again.

BitterAndTwisted

Some "traditions" are best done away with in this modern age, and some well-worth keeping. Serving elders and betters first can go. Not offending your dinner-companions, not.

I'm amazed at the numbers of kids who can't handle a dinner-fork properly, or the vast numbers of grown adults who hold their knives like pens. Or the ones who think a napkin is a mere crumb-catcher or a table-decoration. But that's my problem, not theirs.

lillibet_dripping

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

Some "traditions" are best done away with in this modern age, and some well-worth keeping. Serving elders and betters first can go. Not offending your dinner-companions, not.

I'm amazed at the numbers of kids who can't handle a dinner-fork properly, or the vast numbers of grown adults who hold their knives like pens. Or the ones who think a napkin is a mere crumb-catcher or a table-decoration. But that's my problem, not theirs.

Until a couple of generations have passed though, you WOULD be offending the older generation by not serving them first. But I agree that 'betters' can go hang:rotfl:

Most of us will never have to endure a formal dinner party (I pity the poor Queen - she must just want to curl up on the sofa with a cheese sandwich sometimes) but formal dining etiquette unfortunately will probably always be with us in that sort of situation. It goes hand-in-hand with diplomacy....

BitterAndTwisted

Lilibet: I AM the older generation! And I wouldn't be offended by losing or forgetting ancient customs or obscure rules of etiquette which I feel have no place any longer. But I am offended constantly by some people who behave no better than savages at table.

415SanFran

nuttyp wrote: »

How about please and thankyou. When someone opens a door for you or holds it open a thankyou. If they don't say it, I often do. they are usually embarrassed.

I always say in rather a loud voice "OH you are welcome"
Mother with pushchairs are normally the best mannered and pensioners the worst, in my opinion.

I recently had a birthday meal to attend and the rule was that no-one was to have a phone at the table, the only exclusion to the rule was one person who was on call with their job as it happened he didn't get called. There was every age at the table from 12 months right through to the guest of honour who is about 90 years old.

lillibet_dripping

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

Lilibet: I AM the older generation! And I wouldn't be offended by losing or forgetting ancient customs or obscure rules of etiquette which I feel have no place any longer. But I am offended constantly by some people who behave no better than savages at table.

:rotfl:I stand corrected! I didn't want to offend you though by assuming your age - see, basic good manners again!:T

lillibet_dripping

415SanFran wrote: »

I always say in rather a loud voice "OH you are welcome"
Mother with pushchairs are normally the best mannered and pensioners the worst, in my opinion.

I recently had a birthday meal to attend and the rule was that no-one was to have a phone at the table, the only exclusion to the rule was one person who was on call with their job as it happened he didn't get called. There was every age at the table from 12 months right through to the guest of honour who is about 90 years old.

Now THIS has also got me pondering. I also usually find mothers with buggies (especially double buggies) grateful for the help. I also usually smile at them and say 'been there, done that'..... manners cost nothing!

SOME pensioners, (is it PC to use that word now?) however, are grumpy old sods who seem to EXPECT the door to be held open for them by these 'young whippersnappers' ......

Oooo another can of worms entirely.

Justamum

Funky_Bold_Ribena wrote: »

Turn it off and go and do something less boring instead.

You must be of the same vintage as me

Seakay

honeythewitch wrote: »

If the schools are in loco parentis they should surely be taking the place of a parent in these matters?
It does not take much effort to teach table manners and it is best done by example.
Perhaps you could raise it with the governors and suggest some teachers and parents could eat with the children to help them? This is the way it used to be when I was at school, and I cant imagine any of my teachers refusing to teach anything because they thought it "should be taught at home"

They are no longer in loco parentis - they have many and varied constraints placed on them which no parent has and are actively prevented from teaching social skills and customs which might conflict with whatever is or isn't going on at home.

In the same way random adults no longer have the authority to tell children who have nothing to do with them what to do.

We'd think nothing of being told off for being noisy, running about in shops, making a mess, or whatever by any and all adults present - when was the last time you saw anyone do that? What would you expect to happen if you did?
Last time a saw someone remonstrate with a 10 yeear old who waas screaming and throwng things in the supermarket the mother suddenley showed up and tried to assault them while screaming abuse themselves.

Why should teachers take up the slack which society has created and which they get no thanks and face possible suspension, prosecution or even assault if they try?