Flight delay and cancellation compensation, KLM/AF ONLY

GroundedKat

Wonder if you can help - not sure what to do next/how to appeal

We were booked onto flights from Edinburgh to Bremen via Amsterdam on 27/12/2014 - the onward flight from Amsterdam was supposed to depart from Amsterdam at 09:35 and arrive at Bremen at 10:40, but was cancelled by KLM the day before.

After a hiatus in which we had no idea what was going to happen we were re-routed onto a replacement flight KL1757 from Amsterdam to Bremen which departed at 16:50 and resulted in our arrival at Bremen being delayed by over 7 hours from that originally scheduled.


They said this was due to snow forecast at Schipol but when we arrived there it was raining, not particularly hard even, and planes were merrily taking off and landing without any problems.


It must be said our experience was particularly inconvenient and uncomfortable with our toddler as our first KLM connecting flight had departed from Edinburgh at 05:50, meaning a very early start and long day for us. Furthermore, when we spoke to KLM ground staff at Schipol they failed make us aware of any assistance that could be provided to us in the form of meals etc, adding to our discomfort. As I didn't know any better at the time, we didn't save any receipts from our expenditure which was in cash.


I applied to KLM for compensation under the EU Denied Boarding Regulation 261/2004 using their online form - I reckoned we were each entitled to the sum of €250 compensation.


They sent an email response back (copied below) claiming extraordinary circumstances and refusing the claim for compensation. They did offer to reimburse food costs during that day but as I said, I haven't even saved receipts. It seems a standard copy and paste response - note the reference to Delta Airlines...



I disagree that there were extraordinary circumstances - the weather was not bad, let alone extreme, especially considering it was January. Schipol was busy and bustling with flights taking off and landing, jam-packed with passengers, no delays. The trains were running, everything fine. What do I do next? I'd be grateful for advice. Thanks


The response by email from KLM:

"Thank you for your recent communication, from which I am very sorry to learn about the disappointment you experienced when using our services. Please accept my sincere apologies in this respect.
I regret that due to unforeseen circumstances we have been unable to reply sooner. You can be assured that we are doing our utmost to reduce our response times.
You have every right to expect punctuality from us and I would like to assure you that we do everything possible to deliver this. However, despite our best efforts in this respect, there are occasions when unforeseen circumstances prevent us from operating flights as scheduled.
The flight concerned was disrupted due to ATC restrictions as a result of weather forecasts, which is an extraordinary circumstance and outside our direct control. Therefore, there is no entitlement to legal compensation in this case.
We try hard to ensure that our customers receive a high level of service at all times and therefore, I am concerned to learn from your communication that your own experience in this respect does not match our service goals. Your comments will be registered and made available to the departments concerned in order to improve our service in the future. As such, I would like to thank you for providing this valuable feedback.
I am all too aware of the disappointment and inconvenience this situation will have caused you and I clearly would not wish for this to be your lasting impression of us and the standard of service we aim to provide.
Additionally, I am pleased to inform you that we will gladly reimburse the reasonable cost of hotel accommodation, ground transportation, food, beverages, telecommunications and any diversion/rerouting or baggage irregularity expenses your incurred during the period of this disruption.
If you would like us to consider a reimbursement for any such costs, do not hesitate to get back in touch with us, enclosing any relevant receipts, along with your full bank details, including IBAN number and BIC/SWIFT code.
We would however kindly refer you to your travel insurer should you wish to claim for any consequential or indirect costs or losses you incurred.
You have my assurance that we are well aware of our commitment to customer care and that the situation you experienced was exceptional. As a result of this communication, I certainly hope that you will feel able to choose Delta Air Lines again in the future for your travel needs."

JPears

Compo €250 received from KLM - 24 days from delay/claim submission.
Is this a record?

glentoran99

So just to understand KLM are paying out but Jet 2 are seeking stays on a KLM case?

NoviceAngel

glentoran99 wrote: »

So just to understand KLM are paying out but Jet 2 are seeking stays on a KLM case?

I see the humour in that, but I don't think they are claiming stays any longer, no sign of an appeal as yet.

JPears

Yes, bizarre isn't it?
I even mentioned Van der Lans (and its irrelevance given SC decision ) in my claim submission

glentoran99

NoviceAngel wrote: »

I see the humour in that, but I don't think they are claiming stays any longer, no sign of an appeal as yet.

Probably too busy searching for another case to reference

Tyzap

GroundedKat wrote: »

Wonder if you can help - not sure what to do next/how to appeal
"

Hi,

You should start by reading Vaubans superb guide.You were entitled to a duty of care which they should have offered you regardless of the reason for the delay.

Then check the web site, flightstats (it's free but you have to join), to see if there were any other flights cancelled that day. If there were, then maybe there were ATC restrictions. If not, you probably have a valid claim, so follow Vaubans advice in his guide.

When extreme weather is expected at Heathrow BA are sometime required by ATC to reduce the number of flights to allow more time between landings. When this happens BA often cancel short haul flights, so they may have a similar system at Amsterdam Airport.

Good luck.

stephderm

NoviceAngel wrote: »

Well if the delay, WAS caused by industrial action, that's outside the airlines control so no compensation i'm afraid, however, the good news is that's if it's for operational reasons, then that is under the airlines control so you have a claim, read through Vaubans excellent guide, then re-post any questions you have after reading it.

Good Luck

NoviceAngel

Followed the process to the letter. Air France could not have been better. They responded long before their own self imposed turn around time. Immediately agreed that I had a case and offered 600Euro Cash or 800 Euro Voucher. I have supplied them with my bank details and they have confirmed that money should reach me within 21 days. I really could not be more impressed by their service to me on this occasion. My delay wasn't especially long, but it was inconvenient. Thank you for the guidance. Best regards Stephanie

lammy82

lammy82 wrote: »

I contacted Air France about a flight which was cancelled resulting in me being transferred onto a different flight which resulted in an overall delay far in excess of 4 hours to my final destination.

Air France have replied saying the following:
"The flight concerned was cancelled due to a leak of the bleed-air system. A technical issue like this, that is encountered unexpectedly, which presents itself beyond our scope of influence and is a threat to flight safety, can be regarded as an extraordinary circumstance and therefore is not one where there is an entitlement to compensation under EU regulations."

Now, I can't really argue about what the cause of the cancellation was, because I wasn't given any details at the time and didn't think to ask. But the flight was cancelled the evening before the flight was due to depart, a full 8.5 hours (at least) before the intended departure time. To me, this indicates that they made a commercial decision not to source a replacement aircraft for the flight (or attempt to repair it overnight) and to simply cancel it instead (so they could carry out the repair during the daytime, maybe). The fact that they weren't prepared to find a replacement aircraft during those 8.5 hours would indicate that the cancellation was not purely based on a technical issue.

For reference, the flight was supposed to depart at 6:30am and Air France phoned me at around 10pm the evening before to tell me that the flight was cancelled and arrange the alternative flight (which resulted in me missing almost a full day of holiday in my intended destination).

So.... does anyone think I have a valid case? Should I go back to Air France initially to give them a second chance, or go directly to the CAA?

I thought I would follow up with the outcome, presented as a time line:

28 January 2011 - Air France phone me the evening before my flight to China to tell me that the first leg of my journey has been cancelled due to a technical fault with the aircraft, and email me a revised schedule which gets me to my destination over 24 hours late.

04 September 2013 - Compensation claim submitted to Air France through their website

02 October 2013 - Air France reply: "The flight concerned was cancelled due to a leak of the bleed-air system. A technical issue like this, that is encountered unexpectedly, which presents itself beyond our scope of influence and is a threat to flight safety, can be regarded as an extraordinary circumstance and therefore is not one where there is an entitlement to compensation under EU regulations."

04 October 2013 - I reply, contesting that as the fault was discovered many hours before departure, Air France could have taken reasonable measures to source a replacement aircraft, and that therefore compensation is due.

23 October 2013 - Air France reply reiterating that the circumstances are considered 'extraordinary' and decline my request.

30 November 2013 - I submit my claim to the CAA

11 April 2014 - Air France email me regarding the CAA claim, saying that "the aircraft that was due to serve as your flight to Paris was, in the pre – flight checks, to have developed a leak in the engine system that could not be rectified in a reasonable time", that this was extraordinary, and that they have informed the CAA of their finding.

04 June 2014 - CAA email me to say that Air France do not need to pay compensation as the disruption was "beyond the control of the airline and could not have been avoided". I consider giving up at this point.

31 October 2014 - I send a further email to Air France enquiring what time their records show that the fault with the aircraft was discovered and saying the following: "As I have evidence showing that the flight was cancelled the evening before it was due to operate, your insistence that the fault was discovered during the pre-flight checks (presumably carried out immediately prior to departure) confuses me."


3 November 2014 - Air France reply saying "we are now of the opinion that you should receive the compensation previewed under the EU261 legislation".

3 November 2014 - I email Air France accepting their offer of compensation.

2 January 2015 - No compensation having been received, I send a further email.

25 February 2015 - Air France respond promising payment within 14 working days.

25 March 2015 - The compensation today arrived in my bank account.


As you can see, the whole process has taken a year and a half since the claim was submitted to Air France, but I finally got the compensation due, even after the CAA said I wasn't due it.

I would say that the process was a lot like trying to extract blood from a stone, and I could very easily have given up long ago. The CAA were basically useless (in my case).

Nonetheless, :beer:

razorsedge

lammy82 wrote: »

The CAA were basically useless (in my case).:beer:

And just about everybody elses case too!