Religion has ruined my relatiobnship

margaretclare

quinechinoise wrote: »

I think you need to take some of what the OP has written in context, rather than literally. She's the lapsed-Christian bidey-in of a currently devout Muslim. God can hear her prayers, whether she's in church at the time or not, and He doesn't turn away from any of us. She is now falling short of her partner's elevated expectations and he's not willing to compromise. That man has forgotten that there are no perfect people, only perfect intentions. How he's planning to square that with his new view of religion, I really cannot guess, but that's between him and God. I don't think you can earn moral brownie points by looking down at others (which is what he's now doing): God can surely see inside your heart, not just the facade you present to the world.

But I definitely agree with your last point - there's always a second chance. She has time to find fresh happiness, whether or not that includes children.

Bidey-in - I love it. They used to talk about 'living over t'brush' where I come from. Based on the idea that an unofficial marriage, not in church, was effected by the couple jumping over a broomstick laid on the ground. Of course, there are much older concepts of marriage that pre-date any of the major religions - handfasting was one. In some cultures you lived together for a year and a day and that was, effectively, marriage.

I agree with what you say about God hearing our prayers whether in church or not. The ancient monks used to say 'laborare est orare' i.e. to work is to pray. I'm sure God hears DH's prayer every morning even though not uttered aloud - 'thank you for every new day'. However, in Islam it's not like that. It's very structured, how to/when to pray etc.

margaretclare

andygb wrote: »

Yes, I completely stand by this, a rather fine example being a very famous racehorse owner, and the way he dresses and behaves over here, in contrast to his behaviour back home in Saudi Arabia.
Not all men from Islamic backgrounds are like this, but it seems to be very noticeable from certain countries - Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, African Islamic states, and it usually happens when they are followers of Sunni Wahhabism, a very extreme form of Islam, where the women is very much seen as a second class citizen.
In these situations, the woman is more likely to wear the burkha - "good hejab", rather than be seen in Western clothes. There are then of course all the other "requirements" which combine to further subjugate the woman.

I used to live and work in and around Huddersfield - this is the 1970s we're talking, I left there in 1990. There had been Pakistani migrants to work in the textile industry. Lots of the women wore the traditional loose trousers/long loose top but you never saw them in a burka. When I went back there in the 1990s by then I got the biggest shock to see a woman walking towards me, along a street I used to know well, dressed exactly as if she'd been in Saudi Arabia, and I'd worked in that country. We thought at one time that they'd all get to be more like us. Not so. Many of them have gone the other way. You see it all the time in London.

Hermia

margaretclare wrote: »

I used to live and work in and around Huddersfield - this is the 1970s we're talking, I left there in 1990. There had been Pakistani migrants to work in the textile industry. Lots of the women wore the traditional loose trousers/long loose top but you never saw them in a burka. When I went back there in the 1990s by then I got the biggest shock to see a woman walking towards me, along a street I used to know well, dressed exactly as if she'd been in Saudi Arabia, and I'd worked in that country. We thought at one time that they'd all get to be more like us. Not so. Many of them have gone the other way. You see it all the time in London.

From what I understand the branch of Islam that is now dominating is more conservative than the one in the past. I was brought up in an area with a large Muslim population in the 80s and it was very different to now and I certainly recognise the examples you give. There were many Muslim girls in my school and they just wore a modest version of the school uniform (e.g. they kept the long-sleeved blouses in summer whereas the rest of us would change to a short-sleeved blouse) with a scarf. One of my old school friends now works in the school and said a lot of the parents won't allow their daughters to wear the (modest) uniform and insist they wear robes and a hijab.

I would not marry someone with strong religious beliefs or who expected me to convert The thing that would worry me is what if the goalposts kept being moved. My friend is married to a Catholic man who has got steadily more devout over time. They talked about different things, e.g. how they would raise the children, when they married and he keeps changing everything.

Primrose

Panda - while these conversations have been toing and froing you are probably now getting very close to moving out and the realities of what you are facing are probably starting to dawn on both of you "for real".

It is probably worth sitting down with your boyfriend now and, if you haven't done already, talking about how the split is going to affect you both and impact on your future lives. By both of you facing the stark realities of this, and losing each other after 13 years, it is possible that your partner may now finally start to confront some of the real issues he might previously have been ignoring, ie how he too will have to pick up the threads and soldier on without somebody he loves It is just possible that he may decide he has pushed the issue too far. It may also be, that unknown to you he has been under pressure from some source you are unaware of, and if this is the case, now may be a good time to get all this stuff out on the table in one last ditch attempt to salvage something you really want to hang onto.

Panda78

Primrose wrote: »

Panda - while these conversations have been toing and froing you are probably now getting very close to moving out and the realities of what you are facing are probably starting to dawn on both of you "for real".

It is probably worth sitting down with your boyfriend now and, if you haven't done already, talking about how the split is going to affect you both and impact on your future lives. By both of you facing the stark realities of this, and losing each other after 13 years, it is possible that your partner may now finally start to confront some of the real issues he might previously have been ignoring, ie how he too will have to pick up the threads and soldier on without somebody he loves It is just possible that he may decide he has pushed the issue too far. It may also be, that unknown to you he has been under pressure from some source you are unaware of, and if this is the case, now may be a good time to get all this stuff out on the table in one last ditch attempt to salvage something you really want to hang onto.

Hi Primrose, thanks for your advice. We are at exactly that stage now, but things have remained civil. We have spoken about dividing our personal belongings up and neither of us have hinted that we might change our positions ie converting, so i guess that is it now. It's obvious we are both really sad about this and my family are also very upset, as they know we have had a happy 13 years together and we have lots of other common interests. It's such a shame and so shocking that anything could divide us, but when it's religion, there is very little compromise or solutions.

It seems to have hit my partner later than me. He realises i am serious now and has said he wishes he had family in the UK he could stay with, as it's not going to be nice for him alone in the rented home we currently share. I feel for him, as we have said, Muslims feel they can only answer to one person, Allah and he is doing what he feels is right, even though his day to day life is going to suffer. He is looking at the afterlife more than now, which will sound crazy to non-Muslims, but there you go; our differences on a plate. He is a good man and father and i feel sad that he is sacrificing his current happiness.

Muslims in the UK are more devout now, espcially those born abroad. They used to want to be part of British life and accepted, but since 9/11 a divide has been created and they feel a "them and us" culture, which has made them stick to "their side" as they feel that non-Muslims see them all as "terrorists". I never felt prejudice when i was with my partner until after 9/11 and then again during 7/7, when we even got comments in the street during the aftermath (due to his arab appearence). Anyway, that's a side issue just to add to the interesting conversations that have been going on here.

I'm determined to be grateful for the time we had and even though it's frightening to be single at 34 - not old, but all my adult life has been spent with him - i don't regret staying with him for so long. LTR's are hard enough without cultural, religious and age differences. We did very well for a long time and i know this year is going to be really hard for me, but at least i have my family to support me.

Thank you so much to everyone who has advised me here, you really have been a big help in clearing my mind and convincing me that i am doing the right, but painful, thing in not converting and walking away. Feeling sad, but i know i have done all i can to make us work.

Primrose

Actually Panda yours is one of the saddest posts I've read for ages about a relationship breaking up because it's not about rows and arguments but simply about a cultural/religious difference between two people who both need to 'do right' by their own moral code.
It's sad that your partner will be mostly alone. Are you planning a complete and total split with no future contact, or will you be able to remain friends and still try to support each other emotionally ? It seems to me that there is also the reaction of his children to consider if you've had a good relationship with them because they may be sad too , and perhaps if there is still some contact & support between you, this might ease the break-up. (On the other hand, it may well feel like picking at a scab which is healing. It's a difficult judgement call and only you can decide).

Panda78

Primrose wrote: »

Actually Panda yours is one of the saddest posts I've read for ages about a relationship breaking up because it's not about rows and arguments but simply about a cultural/religious difference between two people who both need to 'do right' by their own moral code.
It's sad that your partner will be mostly alone. Are you planning a complete and total split with no future contact, or will you be able to remain friends and still try to support each other emotionally ? It seems to me that there is also the reaction of his children to consider if you've had a good relationship with them because they may be sad too , and perhaps if there is still some contact & support between you, this might ease the break-up. (On the other hand, it may well feel like picking at a scab which is healing. It's a difficult judgement call and only you can decide).

Thanks Primrose, it really is tough and there is still no anger or even resentment there on either side. Perhaps that is a good thing in the end, but i can't imagine a harder thing to do right now than walk away from a relationship like this.

I would like some contact with him still. I don't think i could carry on being in his children's lives, i'm not sure how that would work yet and i'll let him decide on that one. The problem, yet again, is religion. He wouldn't really be "allowed" to have female friends. I dont expect us to meet up again really, but a phone call and text from time to time would be nice, if only because he doesnt have much family support here and i would just like the reassurance that he is doing ok in future.

I will put the offer out there that he can contact me anytime he needs help or someone to talk to etc and then leave it up to him. It would probably only happen in the event of an emergency, but i hope he would still turn to me if need be.

Errata

I think you are showing great grace and dignity. As his children are in their 20's perhaps they will decide themselves whether to stay in contact with you.
Wishing you well.

Panda78

Errata wrote: »

I think you are showing great grace and dignity. As his children are in their 20's perhaps they will decide themselves whether to stay in contact with you.
Wishing you well.

Thanks Errata, that is nice to hear. Well one is 22, the others 15/16 and i am closest to the eldest. At the very least she has my email address, even if she loses my number over time, so i hope they will contact me if ever they wish or need to. Again, i will leave the offer of future contact open to all of them.

JimmyTheWig

Do you get along with his ex, OP?
If so, that might be an easier way of keeping in touch / keeping up with the children.